Okay, let's get down what we are claiming and what we know:

I am saying the next wii will have to be more than just an improved wii as it is not for hardcore gamers, so taking a hardcore gamer approach to a new console (just improve the hardware) makes no sense. Nintendo allready said that the next xonsole will have something more then HD only improvement
I say it is not for the hardcore because the wii offers no genre defying games (other than wii fit really), whereas other gaming platforms offer genre defying and revolutionary games, ergo hardcore gamers will go where the best games are, not where the casual games are. I said that the Wii has a broad audience wich includes Hardcore, core, casual and new gamers, it isnt aimed at the hardcore only and I am willing to bet that a Nintendo console will never again be aimed at the hardcore only and will continue to serve as broad audience as possible.

You claim the wii is for the hardcore because the pad can be used as a lightgun and a steering wheel, two accessories which have been around since the PS1. You have yet to say how the wii is revolutionary, and clearly have no idea about what is revoltionary nowadays mainly due to the fact you haven't played the games considered to be genre benchmarks. Never said anything about lightgun but lots about fps and sports games but you can continue to ignore that as I will continut to ignore you untill you stop ignoring my answers By the way I can give you 3 examples of genre bechmarks the wii has done this far: Supermario galaxy the best plattformer this gen according to the grades it has gotten and depending on where you look it either the best graded game or 2nd best graded game, Tiger woods golf the best golf game out there and NSMB Wii. Now you can go and refute that and dissaprove but it doesnt make it less true and it will be fun watching you ask the same question again in a post or two

There we are. So are you going to show how the wii is for the hardcore, something Nintendo even said it's not particuarly good at, or just going to trash talk PS3, PC and 360 games? I havent trash talked any of those plattforms the only one trashtalking here is you

There you go now its your turn what relevant studies shows that most wii´s are collecting dust? or that hardcore gamers havent bought a wii?

Seriously? What? You still say that a machine can be limited to no be able to produce hardcore games? What do you base “hardcore” on? On the graphics? Well I assume you do as the Wii is less capable than the other. well by your logic the PS2 was less capable than the GC so I can say it only had casual games or do you disagree? Of course you disagree as it does not work in you favor :P

You seriously think Monster hunter is casual? Super Mario Galaxy? No More heroes 1 and 2? The Conduit?  Metroid Prime 3?

All the games above plus more prove that you really don’t know what you are talking about!

I don’t get Sony fanboys. First they say Nintendo is kiddy and when little big planet comes they love it. They talked shit about the Wii mote and when Sony copies it they go crazy about it. They just say what their company says as Sony always clamed Nintendo being kiddy and said a lot of crap about the Wii mote.

Lol I just said to other to ignore you but it is hard when your so ignorant and I agree with Vaio it is kind of fun :P

Christ - Hardware limits important features like AI, graphics., physics etc and stop trying to pretend graphics don't matter. In every game graphic are important for immersion, and in some more important due to realism being a factor, e.g. sports games.

The wii is far, far worse than the other consoles, so don't say something innane like comparing the minor differences in power between the consoles of the last generation.

Super Mario Galazy is a great platformer I won't argue that, nor that No more Heros (totally forgot about it) is a by any stetch bad, BUT the conduit is ******* awful and Metroid Prime is a resounding meh. Plus even looking at no more heroes, does it do anything new or interesting? Nothing that pops to mind, and this is my point. The wii is fine for casual gamers, but for the hardcore who like to see game development and such, the wii offers nothing more than a versatile pad that's a basic pad, light gun and steering wheel combined, with some sketchy motions.

LBP is kiddy, so I'm not going to argue there, but it just does more for the genre then Super Mario Galaxy, as it has full physics, online map making & sharing, online play and so on.

Unfortunaly with you and Vaio you clearly have played very, very few "hardcore" games as you haven't been aware of how many 360/PS3 games have raised the benchmark for game genres.

Well more than HD doesn't really tell us a lot does it...?

How does the wii have a broad audience? Casual gamers, yes. Hardcore? No Prove that there is more then enough proof on this site to prove you wrong - the wii has no genre defying games, and last I checked the hardcore gamers would go for these types of games, not casual "it'll do games". Its your opinion and you cant prove it while sales prove you wrong

The wiimote in "FPS mode" acts exactly like a light gun and therefore has all the problems of one, so dont try to act as if it's anything special. No it doenst and you only have to play a game to know that and To put it basically, pointing is more accurate, precise and natural. As a parallel, the Wiimote has more lag than the PS3 pad, but there's no doubt that you can point and shoot at opponents far more quickly in the Wii rendition of Call of Duty 4, for example. Light gun games are on rails and MWCoD4 is not on rails i would like to see you controll an FPS game with an lightgun it would be fun to watch you

To point and shoot opponents more accurate and precise and more naturall is what a real gamer wants in an FPS and thats what the wii has provided for consoles now wii and soon move will have accuracy at the same level as a mouse controlled fps and they both beat pads

Super Mario Galaxy was good, certianly, but one game, and LBP offers more in terms of online play, map making etc. Tiger woods golf is on all consoles so you arguing that motion controls make it more realisitic even though the graphics are god awful? It seems a trade off instead of a complete improvement for all the sports games, and more so for any which don't support wiimotion+.  Tiger woods golf game has wimotion+ and has been hailed by critics to be a golf game as it should be can you say that about hd version? No you cant. maybe soon you can with the move controller
NSMB Wii does absolutly nothing new or revolutionary so how the hell can you consider it a benchmark game or revolutionary for the genre? In your oppinion sales and gamers beg to differ. If you actually played it all the way through you would know

You have trashed talked the other platforms by claiming they've done nothing new, when infact that was just your utter lack of knowledge of the games shinning through. That is not trashtalk that was a fact there is not a game or genre that hasnt been done before on pc and thats what I said. consoles have only improved existing genres from pc games and thats why i dont talk about pc especially in a discusion about consoles and how console gamers will buy next gen Nintendo console

Far, far worse in your opinion maybe

And no the hard wear does not limit what type of games it can do like “hardcore” or “casual”

All those limitations you are talking about did not hinder the PS2 to have hardcore games. Well yes I will compare old and new hard ware to prove you wrong. If hardcore games could be done on PS2 then they can be done on Wii.

AI and graphics aren’t only limited to hard wear but also how much effort the developers want to put in the games.

Look at Monster hunter and Mario Galaxy and some other games. Mario has even been said to be comparable graphically to many of the HD games  

Yes the Conduit is crap but crap does not mean it is not for the hardcore which is why I included it in the first place.  

So let’s say a hardcore game from the past has been ported to the Wii will it automatically turn in to a casual game? like RF4 or Okami? Are they not hardcore?

Now good to be talking to you but you seem to like to go in circles like a dog chasing his own tail and I dont like it so it was fun as long as you had any arguments but now that you are harping the same ones even after they have been answered its not fun anymore.

I feel sad for you that you cant go outside of graphics and the few genres you like to see what gaming actually is and try and enjoy all kind of games but that will probably change when you grow up I know it did for me and I am enjoying gaming more now then I did then when I had the same views like you do now.

To show how broad my gaming world is compared to yours I will give you aome examples of games I play and finished lately:

MW2 5 times finished,   Played, completed on 2nd hardest difficulty, done spec ops and level 60 something on multiplayer

MW 1 4 times on hd and another 3 on wii  Multiplatform

Battlefield bad company 2 finished 3 times didnt like the first one. Multiplatform

Bioshock 1 finishe 3 times loved this game one of my favorites this gen Multiplatform

Bioshock 2 finished it 3 days ago once Multiplatform

Metro 2033 playing it at the moment Multiplatform/majorly toned down for 360 and I doubt you have a 5800+ card for it on PC

Just dance awesome game   In your world perhaps - casual game at any rate

Mario kart Finished it at least 3 times and played 100´s of hours online Worst. Racing. Game. Ever. Blue shell anyone? Played it and completed it X amount of times in local multiplayer. Nice to see all the hundreds of new maps. Oh wait...

Red steal 1 finished it 5 times Does nothing new for FPS'

Red steal 2 finished it today Does nothing new for FPS'

FF crystal bearers playing it currently

Wiifit and wiifit+ every morning

Yoga also every morning

Wii sport Awful - really shows how the wii doesn't track real space posistion.

Wii sport  See above

New supermario bros wii Does nothing new for the genre at all

RE 5 finishe 7 times and done all the extras both single and multiplayer Multiplatform

Big brain academy once every 2 days Proven waste of time

de blob finished it once

Dead space hd version finshed it twice  Multiplatform

dawn of discovery currently playing

Endleas ocean currenly playing

Fatal frame 4 currently playing

Fire emblem currently playin almost finished it

The godfather finished it once

kittke kings story

Madworld finished it twice

Metroid prime trilogy finished it 3 times will soon start a 4th playthrough

NFS under cover

NMH 1 finished it twice

NMH 2 got bored of it but will finish it atleast once

Pikmin raving rabbids all of them but the first one is the most awesome and gets played regulary

RE4 finished it 14 times and will play it again later

Scarface wii version finished it 7 times

Silent hill finished it 5 times

Super mario galaxy finished it once

Super monkey ball

Tiger wood 2010 wii version

Splinter cell double agent wii version

Zack 6 wiki

Tenchu

FF x111 didnt like will probably never play it again

Dragon age origins currently playing

Halo 3 finshed it 2 times

Assasinc creed 1 finished it twice will play the second one when i get more time

Fifa xbox version

Dante´s inferno finishe it twice

Gears of war 1 finished it twice

Gears of war 2 finished in 6 times and done all the extras didnt really like the first one but this was an amazing game

GTA 4 finished it once

Darksiders finished it 3 times really loved this game

There you go those are the games ive played the last 6 months or longer there are more games but just to show you how much you can enjoy gaming if you just stop being so closed minded.

Someone's got too much spare time, plus that list is thoroughly unimpressive as most the games are multiplatform, not to mention you've played no PS3 exclusives.

I couldn't be arsed going through your entire list, but if there is an exclusive on the 360 or PS3 I've most likely played it, and likely to have completed it as well and given multiplayer and long spin. As for the Wii I've played Wii party, Sport, Fit, SSBBWii, NSMB, Mario Kart, Speed Racer, Big Brain Academy, House of the Dead, Super Mario Galaxy, F1 something and so on.

Guess what - none of the wii games you've mentioned are genre benchmarks so WHY woudl a hardcore gamer own a wii? Certainly not for the hardcore games, that's for sure.

Ps check ouy my collection - all done and dusted, and most are reguarded as benchmark games, so I know what I'm on about.

I hve played a few of them but since i dont own one i dont get much playtime with it. It´s not worth the money it costs I am only interested in the gaming maching part as the rest ps3 offers if of no value so when it cost 199 with move controllers I wont be buying one.

So sad for you not wanting or event trying to expand your gaming experiences.

Wii sports was never meant to be a perfect execution of their sports and it does what it was meant to do perfecly just as just dance does, the day you can appriciate games that doesnt appeal to you the most and games without the best graphics you will never be a real gamer and a hardcore gamer.

A hardcore gamer plays any game that is remotly good and doesnt limit himself to hardware or graphics, the sort of plyer you are is a hardcore graphics whore player (the same I used to be) and you are in such minoroty and your gaming world will keep gettting smaller.

I never said any of those should have been it was a list to show how versatile my gaming experience is versus yours pathetic little world of gaming.

You know shit as you prove all the time, to know about gaming you have to open your doors for all games even the ones you dont like then you have a valid opinion, untill then you have a very narrow and limited opinion.

Get back to me when you have become a real gamer and a hardcore one, you know one that doesnt limit himself in any way and plays most if not everything out there.

Have fun in your narrow world.