Forums - Sony Discussion - PS5 build cost more than 450 USD , Sony probably having a hard time deciding the retail price

Tagged games:

What do you think

Sony should eat the cost ... 27 42.19%
 
I don't mind 499 USD PS5 ... 18 28.13%
 
499 USD is very cheap i will buy 3 5 7.81%
 
As long it comes with Kna... 10 15.63%
 
Shut up just give us the ... 4 6.25%
 
Total:64
drkohler said:

The real question is: Where are the Chinese hiding the Zombies?

I mean, this virus outbreak has the exact plotline of every tv series currently showing or being made for US tv. A worldwide plague that instantly turns people into zombies is pretty much what we get from the studios nowadays.

As for the Bloomberg thingie: One line tells everything we need to know. In case you haven't noticed, it's the "memory prices went up" story line. Sony and MS have ordered their memories a long time ago. This stuff is ordered 1-3 years ahead of production start. The prices, delivery times, pretty much everything else were agreed upon at the time the contracts were signed and sealed. Those contracts are phonebook sized books that leave no interpretations (hoards of company lawyers make a living out of that). Let's not forget the first batches of memories are probably on the way to the fabs right now for production starts. Neither Sony nor MS cares a shit about what happened since with memory prices. If the prices had gone down, well, bad luck for Sony/MS . If the prices went up, well, bad luck for the fabs who get less money than they could have. That's the way mass manufacturing works. A fab will always prioritise a customer who can occupy a line at full capacity for a prolonged time. That is where the money is for a fab. It is an art for customers do fall in that cathegory with their orders to get good prices, and I'd guess both Sony and MS have ordered enough chips to be there.
If we had to speculate about things getting problematic (=more expensive), we could argue about the state of the SoCs. One more respin needed and the r&d bill would go up significantly.

Often buyers will have written in to the contract that any cost savings made over the time of the contract are passed on, Sony and MS made sure of this after Nvidia continued to charge the same contract price making it hard for MS to use cost saving to cut the price, memory contracts I assume work a bit differently but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a contracted price that allows them to take advantage of any  price drops with the contract price being a ceiling.



Around the Network
TheBraveGallade said:
one other factor to consider is that sony is considerably worse off then they were back even in the ps3's days, right now around half of sony inc's total profits are from PS, it used to be way, WAY lower than that. they used to have spare cash lying around, now they don't (nintendo's war chest, while rediculously large for such a small company, is only slightly smaller than sony's a megacorperation)

You really need to fact check your information while PS is making great bank for Sony it's around 25% not half, its last few years have seen better results than when it was valued at 200+ billion in the late 1980's, the reason its market cap at 70 odd billion hasn't moved back toward that 200 billion range despite its turnaround is according to most experts because of its conglomerate structure it is seen to have too many moving parts so share price isunderperforming compared to its profitability.



konnichiwa said:
399 With not HD and 449 with one. The loss is only for a short time because people buy games,extra controller, ps plus, ps now etc that makes money and the losses will be regained fast.

Impossible, they cant sell you a console where you couldn't even install the game, basically they would never sell you a console where you couldn't play games on, the backlash would be too much and would hurt the brand name.

Sony has said before they wouldn't sell consoles at a loss anymore, I remember that from the beginning of current generation, so that wont happen.



thismeintiel said:
I'd just go with a $449 price point and take the ~$25-$30 loss per console. They'd break even with the sale of a single 1st party game. A similar situation to this gen.

Though, if they really want people to move on to the PS5 quicker and completely crush it again next gen, it may be worth it to just take the ~$75-$80 hit per console. It's much less than the PS3's losses of $200+, and considering that they are using more off the shelf parts, prices will drop much quicker.

They wont do it, I know Sony, they will rather lower the build quality than to take a loss.

They are not worried, people will move quicker from ps4 to ps5 than last time, this is a certainty, 100% sure it will happen. So they are not worried at all, the key thing this generation is backwards compatibility which will improve visuals and performance of current gen games.

The other key thing is, Microsoft did much worse this generation, so many will move to playstation this time around.

I will bet with anyone any kind of bet that sony will outsell the xbox series X, I am 100% sure.

They will rather lower build quality because they know for a fact that the general public doesn't care, how many of your friends have complained that the xbox X has a better cooling system and materials than the pro? Not many, that's why they know its wiser to just give us the cheapest materials possible, while maintaining profits. Bear in mind, materials are not just the plastic, for example the wiiU and xbox X have a better disc drive, by far, when you insert and remove a disc on those consoles its quiet and smooth, in the case of wiiU it even has a light when theres a disc inside, also pick up a wiiU and youll see the plastic is strong and firm, very unlike the playstation. The only time sony invested in quality materials was original ps3 and public complained because of the price, so they know for a fact that people prefer cheap rather than quality.

How many people complained that the original ps4 sounded like a jet taking off? Not many, so there you go, they will do it again.



sales2099 said:
It’s gonna be $499. Question is whether MS is willing to eat the cost and make Series X the same price

There is no question at all here, Microsoft has shown they are willing to take a bit hit on hardware, just look at the xbox X for example. And Microsoft can actually afford to take a loss, Microsoft is worth over 1 trillion dollars, that's more than 15x the value of sony. If there is any gaming company capable of taking a huge loss is only Microsoft.

Microsoft will be smart, they will release a top of the range console for most likely 550 dollars, and other console for around 400-450 dollars.

The cheaper model will be close to the xbox X in power, the higher end console will be more powerful than the ps5. If they do not include the vapor cooling from the xbox X, it would mean they could easily give as the cheaper console at 400dollars, 500gb SSD, slightly weaker than ps5 but still enough for all games to look amazing, in fact the xbox X already has the power to make games look amazing if they were build from the ground up to those specs.



Around the Network
victor83fernandes said:
thismeintiel said:
I'd just go with a $449 price point and take the ~$25-$30 loss per console. They'd break even with the sale of a single 1st party game. A similar situation to this gen.

Though, if they really want people to move on to the PS5 quicker and completely crush it again next gen, it may be worth it to just take the ~$75-$80 hit per console. It's much less than the PS3's losses of $200+, and considering that they are using more off the shelf parts, prices will drop much quicker.

They wont do it, I know Sony, they will rather lower the build quality than to take a loss.

They are not worried, people will move quicker from ps4 to ps5 than last time, this is a certainty, 100% sure it will happen. So they are not worried at all, the key thing this generation is backwards compatibility which will improve visuals and performance of current gen games.

The other key thing is, Microsoft did much worse this generation, so many will move to playstation this time around.

I will bet with anyone any kind of bet that sony will outsell the xbox series X, I am 100% sure.

They will rather lower build quality because they know for a fact that the general public doesn't care, how many of your friends have complained that the xbox X has a better cooling system and materials than the pro? Not many, that's why they know its wiser to just give us the cheapest materials possible, while maintaining profits. Bear in mind, materials are not just the plastic, for example the wiiU and xbox X have a better disc drive, by far, when you insert and remove a disc on those consoles its quiet and smooth, in the case of wiiU it even has a light when theres a disc inside, also pick up a wiiU and youll see the plastic is strong and firm, very unlike the playstation. The only time sony invested in quality materials was original ps3 and public complained because of the price, so they know for a fact that people prefer cheap rather than quality.

How many people complained that the original ps4 sounded like a jet taking off? Not many, so there you go, they will do it again.

Lol, then you obviously don't know Sony.  They have taken a loss on every single console at launch.  Also, the PS4 feels like a quality built machine.  Not sure what machine you have been touching.  The noise is a problem for some users.  However, according to this article, Sony is putting in a high quality cooling method, so that shouldn't be a problem this time around.

As for your above comment on Xbox, if anything, this gen has proven that MS isn't looking to take a loss on HW.  If they wanted to, they could have launched the XBO for $399, too, even with Kinect.  Instead they didn't.  It also took them almost 7 months to lower it to match the PS4's price. This is around the time PS4's BOM dropped to the point Sony was making a profit on each console sold.  My guess is MS got the XBO's price to where they were at least breaking even at $399. Likewise, they could have easily launched the XSX at $399 to take on the Pro.  Instead, they didn't want to lose any money on it, so, again, released it for $499.

Remember, MS's $ =/= Xbox's money.  MS is not going to throw money down a hole to push HW.  Especially not when they are focusing on services.



victor83fernandes said:
sales2099 said:
It’s gonna be $499. Question is whether MS is willing to eat the cost and make Series X the same price

There is no question at all here, Microsoft has shown they are willing to take a bit hit on hardware, just look at the xbox X for example. And Microsoft can actually afford to take a loss, Microsoft is worth over 1 trillion dollars, that's more than 15x the value of sony. If there is any gaming company capable of taking a huge loss is only Microsoft.

Microsoft will be smart, they will release a top of the range console for most likely 550 dollars, and other console for around 400-450 dollars.

The cheaper model will be close to the xbox X in power, the higher end console will be more powerful than the ps5. If they do not include the vapor cooling from the xbox X, it would mean they could easily give as the cheaper console at 400dollars, 500gb SSD, slightly weaker than ps5 but still enough for all games to look amazing, in fact the xbox X already has the power to make games look amazing if they were build from the ground up to those specs.

My only reply would be that it doesn’t really matter how much a corporation is worth, that budgets do matter. Because a successful corporation Gets to where it is by not giving their money away. 

If the Series X matches PS5 at $499, they can make the pitch that for the same price you get more power. And then the $399 Lockhart console to undercut it. 



___________

thismeintiel said:

As for your above comment on Xbox, if anything, this gen has proven that MS isn't looking to take a loss on HW.  

That is a really, really stunning thing to say (I have another word for it in my mind but we'll stay civilised). I don't know where you are living but at least in Europe (and my guess is pretty much everywhere), MS has lost a staggering amount of money if we look at the hardware only. My guess the total losses over the lifetime of the XBox could have reached anywhere from $2B to $4B.

Let's look at just a few problems:

1. XBox manufacturing. For the past few years (actually less than two years since launch), there hasn't been a week when you couldn't buy an XBox over here for around $199-$229 (and those usually have been bundles: 1-4 games, 3 months of free gamepass). There is NO WAY an XBox could ever have even been manufactured for less than that (I do not know what the store margins are/were for those units, but it's not $zero). Btw, XBoxes (not counting X1X, but that one actually required a complete redesign of the SoC, so add $80-100Mio here) are more expensive to manufacture than PS4s, judging by comparing motherboards). As a very rough guess, at the very least a $50 loss on every unit sold. For how many millions of units worldwide?

2. Kinect2. Kinect was and still is an engineering masterpiece, probably the best electronics device ever designed. It cost a shitton in r&D and to manufacture it (it has three special chips which require zero defects, and other top-notch components).  I have never understood why MS has never produced a standalone version of its Kinect2. There are a lot of researchers and probably photographers who would have bought such a device. If you tried to buy a tof chip, you'd still pay several times the price of the entire Kinect2, even today (actually a single tof chip with lesser resolution was in the $8000 region when Kinect2 hit the market. I remember the research group I was in once had around $50000 free to spend on equipment and the choice was between a tof system and a dye laser system (the boss bought the laser system). I'd estimate the manufacturing costs of the Kinect2 at around $200 simply by looking at all its components. Kinect2 was/is a high-end product, not a cheesy device like the original Kinect. This also puts to rest the myth that the $499 XBox was more expensive than the $399 PS4 - in reality, the XBox was much cheaper.

So let's make very rough guess what the Kinect2 fiasco cost for MS. Kinect2 was intended to go with every XBox sold, certainly 10mio chipsets were ordered for its first batch of units. How many were actually sold? 1 Million? 2 Million? Let's be generous and say 4 Million. That leaves 6 Million chipsets for the dump. Very roughly a $1B loss.

3. Software costs for the backwards compatibility program. That is an ongoing thing and I have no idea how large that group is that made the crossassembler/360os on XBox and fine-tunes it for every game they put on the gavel. Surely a few millions every year is spent on this.

4. There are more things that I keep wondering about, but probably not really hardware related. For example, how much does the XBox group pay the server group for using, maintaining, manning, upgrading, whatever else is involved, for the Azure server infrastructure all over the world. I have a sneaky suspicion that they have been freeloading on it, at least up to the point when Nadella made a few changes to the way things went up to that point. We will never know of course.

Phew, this rant has been much longer than I intended, but there are so many things thrown around in foums which are just plain wrong (other forums are even worse, though). One thing is absolutely sure though: On hardware, XBox is deep in the red.

Last edited by drkohler - on 16 February 2020

I mean inflation is a thing...

I wouldn't mind a 499 USD (599 CAD) pricetag for the new Xbox (and PS5).



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

Radek said:
Trumpstyle said:
Sony better charge $400 if the console is 9TF or this is a robbery.

How? 9.2 Tflops in 2020 is more towards high-end while 1.8 Tflops in 2013 was mid-range, also ultra fast 1 TB SSD is much more expensive than 500 GB HDD or even 1TB HDD is, also factor in inflation in 7 years and Coronavirus.

Look what first party devs achieved with 1.8 Tflops. Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4, TLOU 2, Ghost of Tsushima, God of War, Spiderman, 9.2 Tflops is plenty.

$499 even if it's 9.2 Tflops is more than fair price.

EDIT: Also how do you even expect it to cost $399 when it's already costing $450 to produce? Doesn't factor packaging, shipping, retail margin etc.

Yes, Sony might use the same excuses as you are, $500 is just to much and is an insult to their PS fans if they have an 9TF console, they must charge $400 if that is the case. I'm okey with $500 for 11TF, that would be great.



"Donald Trump is the greatest president that god has ever created" - Trumpstyle

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!