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Forums - Movies & TV - Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker final trailer

xMetroid said:
Anyway i felt like TLJ was a nice visual experience but a waste of time and just said "fuck this new trilogy i don't care" but i'm still excited for this one as the final episodes are my favorites ones and so it is for most people tbh. Like even if you didn't like the path they took in Ep 7 and 8, like i do, i still don't comprehend people saying they are bad movies. Like to me atleast, they were worth the experience but yea i hope they take things up wayyyyyyy further with this one.

Oh yeah in fairness it is a visually stunning film. That's about the one thing it has going for it to me.

I think it was the guys at Red Letter Media that said something like "I'd hire Rian Johnson to handle the cinematography/visual effects in a heartbeat for my film, but I'm making sure he stays FAR away from the script" lol.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

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xMetroid said:
Anyway i felt like TLJ was a nice visual experience but a waste of time and just said "fuck this new trilogy i don't care" but i'm still excited for this one as the final episodes are my favorites ones and so it is for most people tbh. Like even if you didn't like the path they took in Ep 7 and 8, like i do, i still don't comprehend people saying they are bad movies. Like to me atleast, they were worth the experience but yea i hope they take things up wayyyyyyy further with this one.

Visuals shouldn't be much of a factor when looking at a movie critically. They're mostly dependent on budget rather than skill. What's so hard to comprehend about not liking bad writing and bland unoriginal concepts? You're not even making sense, you just said TLJ is a waste a time, how can you then say you don't understand why people say it's bad and that it's a worthy experience? You're about as consistent as the sequel trilogy lol.



Shadow1980 said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

"Don't listen to the haters" a.k.a. live in ignorance to the actual criticisms and just blindly believe that what you say are the reasons behind the hate.

People don't like it because it was bad, it's that simple. Anything else is your self delusion to avoid accepting this inconvenient truth. Also, the original trilogy isn't headcannon lol, you can't just ignore it and make Luke change drastically for the sake of a dumb plot.

I liked the movie, therefore I'm deluded, and I'm in the wrong for encouraging others to watch it instead of listening to people who say "don't bother"?

Yeah, sure. How about you bite me, okay?

Even I don't think TLJ is perfect, as I clearly stated, but I think the most strident criticisms of it are unfounded.

Luke's characterization seems like the most common target. Well, to me Luke feels completely in character. The pessimistic, defeatist, emotional Luke growing up to be an old pessimistic, defeatist, emotionally broken hermit. It's his natural disposition. Even Yoda calls him out on his old bad habits. And the idea that Luke Skywalker, the man who did this in a moment of anger and weakness:

...might also in a moment of weakness ignite his lightsaber after seeing what lied within Ben's mind but still refrain from striking him down seems completely plausible to me. It seems to me that a lot of fans had this idea in their head that Old Luke was supposed to have become some wise Jedi Master, an Obi Wan 2.0 or whatever. Or something more akin to however Luke was portrayed in the old Legends material. Instead we got OT Luke with grey hair and some people called foul. In other words, their headcanon was ignored. A legacy character's portrayal not conforming to your personal idea of how they should be portrayed does not make the movie bad.

What's next? "Rey is a Mary Sue!"? Please. She's even more flawed in this film. Still stubborn, impulsive, naive, hotheaded, and nothing goes according to plan for her (in keeping with "failure" as an overarching theme of the movie). There's nothing about her any more Mary Sue-ish than, say, Luke using the Force to get the kill shot on the Death Star despite next to no training, or young Anakin whoops-ing his way to getting the victory for the good guys at the Battle of Naboo.

Snoke's death? Not really much different than Palpatine in the OT. Snoke and the Emperor were both one-note Bigger Bads who served as a plot device to advance another character's story arc and spent their brief screen times engaging in evil gloating. Vader killed Palpatine to save his son and redeem himself. Kylo Ren killed Snoke to achieve his own goals. And just like Snoke, Palpatine had no character background or anything. His history was a blank. We just knew he was the leader of the bad guys. Palpatine didn't become fleshed out until the prequels. Snoke may be the Bigger Bad, but Kylo Ren is the main antagonist, and it's his story that matters on the villainous side. The fact that some people didn't get the back story they wanted out of Snoke does not make the movie bad.

The "Holdo Maneuver"? Pointless technical quibbles easily handwaved away, and such minutiae not immediately satisfying your questions does not make a movie bad (as if the writers are obligated to explain to you in the film itself how they view the economics and tactical usefulness of a lightspeed kamikaze in a way that satisfies you). And besides, it's an awesome scene.

Let's be honest. There is precious little in the way of legitimate film criticism coming from the vocal minority that are TLJ's haters. It's not a bad movie by any stretch. Rabid fans not liking something does not make that film bad. Ishtar, Howard the Duck, Plan 9 from Outer Space, Manos: The Hands of Fate, Dragonball Evolution, and the works of Uwe Boll and Seltzer & Friedberg are bad movies. The Last Jedi is not, even if it doesn't satisfy your needs and desires as a fan.

KLAMarine said:

"Disney-era films are objectively better as films than the prequels."

>Not too sure about this. At least the prequels had an end in mind: the rise of Darth Vader. Sequels don't feel like there was a plan to begin with. SOMEHOW, the empire is back and they managed to build a XXL death star without anyone noticing. Rebel alliance are rebels again SOMEHOW.

Rotten Tomatoes scores for all the Star Wars films:

A New Hope: 93%
The Empire Strikes Back: 95%
Return of the Jedi: 81%

The Phantom Menace: 53%
Attack of the Clones: 66%
Revenge of the Sith: 80%

The Force Awakens: 93%
The Last Jedi: 91%
Rogue One: 84%
Solo: 70%

The general consensus among critics is that the Episodes I & II are average or mediocre films, with RotS being pretty good (and the general consensus among most of the general audience agrees with that assessment, with RotS being considered the high mark of an overall unimpressive prequel trilogy). Meanwhile, the general critical consensus is that, Episodes VII & VIII are excellent, on par with the first two films, and that Rogue One is pretty good, too, and Solo merely decent at best. I think that's a fair assessment of the Disney-era films.

I know it might be controversial to say so, but film critics are usually right (note the qualifying language I'm using and will continue to use; critics are humans and therefore not perfect). They are typically people that went to film school, studied film seriously as art, and are generally best equipped to be objective about what makes for good film, such as the quality of its writing, cinematography, screenplay, acting, set/art/costume design, etc. General audiences are not (fans especially can be too obsessive to be objective, case in point the more toxic segments of Star Wars fandom). When critics universally praise a movie, it's probably a good movie, even if it's not for everyone. When they universally pan a movie, it's probably a bad movie, even if some people may unironically enjoy it as dumb fun (and there's nothing wrong with enjoying an objectively bad movie). Audiences too often think that critics are only right if the critics' opinions are congruent with their own. If critics praise a movie they don't like or pan a movie they do like, they call foul, but if their tastes agree with that of the critics they nod their head in agreement. We see this all the time. As an example of the latter, every time "Anticipated Blockbuster X" gets glowing reviews the people looking forward to the movie trot out the RT score to say "See! It's a good movie!" Meanwhile, movies that are legitimately mediocre films sometimes become hits with general audiences (live-action Transformers, anyone?).

Also, your questions about the First Order and the Resistance are easily answered. It's clear from the films that the Empire didn't just vanish, but reconstituted itself under a new name, and that the Resistance is Leia's own personal paramilitary organization separate from the New Republic that, unlike the Republic, sees the FO for the threat it is. With only the Resistance seeing the FO as a serious threat and the FO holding up in the Unknown Regions (a barely-explored part of the galaxy that was established in the fiction long ago and retained as canon), the idea that they could keep Starkiller Base a secret (hell, the Rebellion only learned about the DS2 because Palpatine let them). It's easy to put two and two together. There's also a lot of details in sources outside the films. If you want a wiki summary, here you go:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Resistance
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/First_Order
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cold_war

Yeah i disagree with you on almost everything you put into that post but this is the same argument over and over that leads to nowhere,objectivity against feelings.

I just have a question for you.

Why do you think the userscores are so bad for The last jedi while The force awakens before it have gotten pretty good scores,you think that "vocal minority" of hundredthousands of users are less important than the "mayor general consensus" those 500 critics on for example rotten tomatoes,the same critics that often bring their political opinions into these reviews or only focus on the social liberal checkboxes?

Just give us a logical reason without talking negative about those with another perspective than you.



Shadow1980 said:

KLAMarine said:

*snip*

The point I was trying to make was that neither Luke nor young Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sue characters. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses that are perfectly explicable in-story.

Luke blew up the Death Star by using the Force to help make the kill shot despite no real training, but he's also a farm boy who lived a relatively coddled life and wasn't physically formidable in the beginning, and whether as a young or old man he always had a defeatist, pessimistic attitude. Rey is a powerful but flawed character. Her individual strengths are clear from the film and fleshed out even more in ancillary material. It's well established that she does have experience as a pilot and is familiar first-hand with the Falcon, plus in supplemental material it's established that she also has a flight training program, so the idea of her being able to fly the Falcon (after nearly crashing it during take-off) is no less implausible than Luke being good at piloting a military fighter craft in actual combat after using what amounts to a small civilian craft (imagine going from a single-engine Cessna or and old WW2 piston plane to a modern fighter jet), even getting a confirmed kill against a trained TIE fighter pilot. Also, Rey has lived almost her whole life as a junker (more experience with machines!) on a harsh world where she almost certainly routinely encountered thugs and so had to learn to defend herself, so being proficient in hand-to-hand combat is not only unusual but is arguably expected given her circumstances. Her weaknesses are clear as well. She's hot-headed, impulsive, stubborn, naive, a bit ignorant, and can be a horrible judge of character at times (Luke was right: turning Kylo to the light did not go the way she thought it would), not to mention she almost gave herself over to the Dark Side during Luke's lessons.

There are plenty of powerful characters in fiction that are nevertheless flawed individuals and therefore not Mary Sues. Rey is one of them. There's nothing uniquely or unusually "perfect" about her compared to other SW protags that makes her a Mary Sue.

"The point I was trying to make was that neither Luke nor young Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sue characters. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses that are perfectly explicable in-story.

Luke blew up the Death Star by using the Force to help make the kill shot despite no real training, but he's also a farm boy who lived a relatively coddled life and wasn't physically formidable in the beginning, and whether as a young or old man he always had a defeatist, pessimistic attitude. Rey is a powerful but flawed character. Her individual strengths are clear from the film and fleshed out even more in ancillary material. It's well established that she does have experience as a pilot and is familiar first-hand with the Falcon, plus in supplemental material it's established that she also has a flight training program, so the idea of her being able to fly the Falcon (after nearly crashing it during take-off) is no less implausible than Luke being good at piloting a military fighter craft in actual combat after using what amounts to a small civilian craft (imagine going from a single-engine Cessna or and old WW2 piston plane to a modern fighter jet), even getting a confirmed kill against a trained TIE fighter pilot. Also, Rey has lived almost her whole life as a junker (more experience with machines!) on a harsh world where she almost certainly routinely encountered thugs and so had to learn to defend herself, so being proficient in hand-to-hand combat is not only unusual but is arguably expected given her circumstances. Her weaknesses are clear as well. She's hot-headed, impulsive, stubborn, naive, a bit ignorant, and can be a horrible judge of character at times (Luke was right: turning Kylo to the light did not go the way she thought it would), not to mention she almost gave herself over to the Dark Side during Luke's lessons."

>I'm sure you can explain away Rey being so capable but that doesn't solve the problem I have with her: the world she is in does not seem like any sort of challenge to her because she's so capable. Always coming out on top on her own is what creates the problem. Her reading Kylo's mind and essentially rescuing herself from captivity presents a missed opportunity wherein her allies could have assisted her escape thus not only strengthening her friendship with those characters but also increasing the threat level of said world.

I have a hard time believing someone would be so talented in so many areas: combat, speaks droid and wookie, piloting, mechanical expertise, using the force, aiming a gun, lightsaber handling and fighting. Let's dial that back so she's a little more believable. To add to that are the privileges she enjoys: being trusted with a critical mission to find Luke by the resistance automatically, Solo wanting to hire her, and Leia embracing her instead of Chewie despite the fact that the two had never met before. Over freaking Chewie! A legacy character who was a long time friend of Solo and Leia.

Don't wanna call her a Mary Sue? Fine. I'll settle for calling her an awful character.

Luke on the other hand had near non-existent combat abilities, Leia and Han didn't take him too seriously, and he'd likely be hurt/dead without help from others.

Let me leave with a clip from a show wherein the main character is a 'chosen one' of sorts but that doesn't stop the world from feeling like a threat. Avatar The Last Airbender: Aang (bald kid) is the Avatar which certainly grants him privileges but this does not stop the other characters from helping/hurting him and shining in their own way: Katara (girl summoning water) fights alongside him and she along with Uncle Iroh (older man) save his ass against the likes of Azula (girl summoning fire) and Zuko (scar face), Iroh doing so at his own expense. Azula and Zuko in the meantime present to him a serious challenge and do not back down from attacking when he is at his most vulnerable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-m-a9eZZac

This is how you do a chosen one. This is how you do a villain, Azula attacking rather than waiting for the hero to power up. Beautifully done!

Last edited by KLAMarine - on 27 October 2019

Shadow1980 said:

KLAMarine said:

*snip*

The point I was trying to make was that neither Luke nor young Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sue characters. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses that are perfectly explicable in-story.

Luke blew up the Death Star by using the Force to help make the kill shot despite no real training, but he's also a farm boy who lived a relatively coddled life and wasn't physically formidable in the beginning, and whether as a young or old man he always had a defeatist, pessimistic attitude. Rey is a powerful but flawed character. Her individual strengths are clear from the film and fleshed out even more in ancillary material. It's well established that she does have experience as a pilot and is familiar first-hand with the Falcon, plus in supplemental material it's established that she also has a flight training program, so the idea of her being able to fly the Falcon (after nearly crashing it during take-off) is no less implausible than Luke being good at piloting a military fighter craft in actual combat after using what amounts to a small civilian craft (imagine going from a single-engine Cessna or and old WW2 piston plane to a modern fighter jet), even getting a confirmed kill against a trained TIE fighter pilot. Also, Rey has lived almost her whole life as a junker (more experience with machines!) on a harsh world where she almost certainly routinely encountered thugs and so had to learn to defend herself, so being proficient in hand-to-hand combat is not only unusual but is arguably expected given her circumstances. Her weaknesses are clear as well. She's hot-headed, impulsive, stubborn, naive, a bit ignorant, and can be a horrible judge of character at times (Luke was right: turning Kylo to the light did not go the way she thought it would), not to mention she almost gave herself over to the Dark Side during Luke's lessons.

There are plenty of powerful characters in fiction that are nevertheless flawed individuals and therefore not Mary Sues. Rey is one of them. There's nothing uniquely or unusually "perfect" about her compared to other SW protags that makes her a Mary Sue.

Immersiveunreality said:

Yeah i disagree with you on almost everything you put into that post but this is the same argument over and over that leads to nowhere,objectivity against feelings.

I just have a question for you.

Why do you think the userscores are so bad for The last jedi while The force awakens before it have gotten pretty good scores,you think that "vocal minority" of hundredthousands of users are less important than the "mayor general consensus" those 500 critics on for example rotten tomatoes,the same critics that often bring their political opinions into these reviews or only focus on the social liberal checkboxes?

Just give us a logical reason without talking negative about those with another perspective than you.

Because user scores can be easily influenced by large numbers of people acting in bad faith. The Last Jedi's RT and Meta user scores were clearly subject to review bombing. It's not the first work of fiction to be subject to this, nor was it the last. Vote brigading (of which review bombing is a subset of or at least closely related to) isn't anything unusual on the internet. Just this year we saw Captain Marvel being a high-profile film subject to attempted review bombing on RT (mainly by "anti-SJWs" angry at Brie Larson; after the film came out and became a smash hit, many of its haters thought Disney bought most of the tickets for it—which could be construed as securities fraud and would be bad for business anyway—simply because it defied their belief in "get woke, go broke"). Last year there was a similar attempt to sabotage Black Panther's user review scores. Such behavior is rarely a critique of the artistic merits of a film or game or what have you, but rather exists primarily as an act of protest. BOM estimated that over 67 million tickets were sold domestically based on average ticket prices. Even allotting for 20% of that to be from repeat viewers, that's still over 53M people who went to see it in just the U.S. and Canada. The 100k people taking to RT to drop 1/10 scores amounts to less than 0.2% of that.

When a film like TLJ gets a 90+% average review score from professional critics (the people who actually do study and critique film seriously as an art form and thus are more likely to be objective than fans in regards to its artistic merits) and wins multiple awards but a bunch of disgruntled fans (and maybe more than a few anti-SJWs) give it a bunch of 1/10 reviews to try to drag the average down, I think I'm going to side with the professionals. A character being portrayed in a way that isn't congruent with someone's idea of how they should be portrayed or a secondary villain not getting sufficient background information before being offed or quibbles over fictional technology does not make a film worthy of a 1/10 score. The vocal minority of people who are that irate over the film clearly feel that way not because they have legitimate criticisms of the screenplay, script, cinematography, acting, visuals, and other artistic aspects of the film, but rather because they feel it did not meet their desires as fans. "Critical dissonance" does exist, but this is ridiculous. There is nothing objectively wrong with the film that puts it in league with legitimate all-time critical flops. You know. The films that actually are cinematic atrocities.

Also, The Last Jedi fares far better with user review scores elsewhere. Audience polling from CinemaScore and comScore showed the vast majority of general audiences loved it. User reviews of the Blu-ray release on Amazon give it 4/5 stars. On IMDb two-thirds of user scores give rate it a 7/10 or better (20.4% rate it 7/10, 21.2% rate is 8/10, and 24.7% rate it either a 9/10 or 10/10). The median score is a 7/10 and the weighted average score is 7.1/10. If you knock off the 6.8% of user scores that were 1/10, the non-weighted average improves from 6.8 to 7.3, better than Episodes I & II and Solo, roughly on par with Episode III, not too far behind The Force Awakens, and only a bout a point to a point-and-half behind the OT films. And looking at the percentage of users who rated it a 7/10 or better it compares well to other movies in the franchise (and far better than Episodes I & II). That's not bad. That's pretty good. Not as good as what the critics thought, but still far from the worst in the franchise, much less "worst film ever."

When you don't have mass numbers of people vote brigading out of protest, a more realistic picture emerges. The vast majority of people thought it ranged from pretty good to really good. A vocal minority deciding to organize a mass protest against a film by sabotaging its average user score is not the behavior of well-adjusted adults. It's the behavior of a fringe group of people with an axe to grind. All over a movie. A movie! A movie that nearly everyone else outside their small but intensely angry circle liked. You'd swear they were a religious cult and that Rian Johnson blasphemed against their god or something. Why should I take that kind of behavior seriously? That's a rhetorical question. I shouldn't take it seriously. It's juvenile behavior and I'm not going to defend or excuse or empathize with it. Some people need to grow the fuck up. If someone feels the need to review bomb a film or dogpile anyone who defends it, then I have to question their maturity. And if they feel the need to call others things "ignorant" or "deluded" for liking and defending the movie and encouraging others to watch it, then I'm not even going to bother engaging with them because they're not worth my time. I've seen enough childish behavior on the internet to know I shouldn't trust negative user scores in these circumstances. It is not legitimate film criticism. It's a farce.

Thanks for the effort put into that response.

First bolded:

But did you not say the people that badly criticized the movie in bad faith are a minority,the last jedi did not have that many more userreviews than the force awakens so do you really think 200000 + people (reviews from rotten tomatoes) just switched to being in bad faith after giving good ratings to the first movie ? I know that those are not always the same people but why did so many people that liked the first movie not make an effort OR rated this movie lesser than the previous one? It might have been partly affected by reviewbombing indeed but that mostly happens when a product is bad in first place.

Second bolded:

Yet the Black panther movie got overall good ratings so people did atleast find that movie good enough to give it a good rating in general aside from the reviewbombers.(that are not so effective when a movie is good in first place)

Third:

Yes the movie rating are better where there are less user ratings so that is that and the median score being 7/10 on other(less popular by the mainstream pool of star wars fans) rating mediums,yes that is understandable imo because i would give it that rating myself while finding it a flawed movie.

Fourth:

But how can that vocal minority outweigh those plenty of users have that given the movie prior to it good critique?A vocal minority of extremists protesting in scoring reviews online should not be that effective compared to the better scores if it actually was a good Star Wars movie and the example for that you could see on the Black Panther movie scorings.

Fifth:

Yes some people behave like that but it is of no use to assume that same behaviour/thoughts goes for the people that try to be fair in their critique and there are lots of them if you attempt to actually read what they try to put down in their reviews.You should not take the extreme seriously but do not let it blind you from the others that have less extreme opinions and please do not bind them together.

Sixth:

Case by case scenario,always needing to "dig in it" to know what it is about.

On a side note:

"get woke go broke" and "anti sjw" + the sensitivity against anything that contains Brie Larson has a reason but you do not always have to focus on the extremity of it to think that is what motivates most people believing in it,i dislike anti sjw people and i like them also so it just depends on the person in question.



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@DarthMetalliCube I watched all of those videos. Enjoyed them so much! Thank you.



Lonely_Dolphin said:
xMetroid said:
Anyway i felt like TLJ was a nice visual experience but a waste of time and just said "fuck this new trilogy i don't care" but i'm still excited for this one as the final episodes are my favorites ones and so it is for most people tbh. Like even if you didn't like the path they took in Ep 7 and 8, like i do, i still don't comprehend people saying they are bad movies. Like to me atleast, they were worth the experience but yea i hope they take things up wayyyyyyy further with this one.

Visuals shouldn't be much of a factor when looking at a movie critically. They're mostly dependent on budget rather than skill. What's so hard to comprehend about not liking bad writing and bland unoriginal concepts? You're not even making sense, you just said TLJ is a waste a time, how can you then say you don't understand why people say it's bad and that it's a worthy experience? You're about as consistent as the sequel trilogy lol.

I agree. And when looking at the movie critically, most critics and movie goers thought it was top notch.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

d21lewis said:
@DarthMetalliCube I watched all of those videos. Enjoyed them so much! Thank you.

Nice glad to hear. Yeah the dude seems to know what he's talking about and manages to throw a lot of information and analysis at you while also being entertaining. More enjoyable than TLJ frankly heh. 

His season 8 GoT critiques are also solid.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

starcraft said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

Visuals shouldn't be much of a factor when looking at a movie critically. They're mostly dependent on budget rather than skill. What's so hard to comprehend about not liking bad writing and bland unoriginal concepts? You're not even making sense, you just said TLJ is a waste a time, how can you then say you don't understand why people say it's bad and that it's a worthy experience? You're about as consistent as the sequel trilogy lol.

I agree. And when looking at the movie critically, most critics and movie goers thought it was top notch.

That means they're clearly not looking at it critically. Luke's character aassassination Poe being framed as in the wrong after saving everyone, Leia & Holdo stupidly hiding their plan, the pointless trip to that rich planet, the throne room play fight, Rose stupidly and impossibly stopping Finn from saving everyone, among so much more are anything but top notch. This movie has so much objectively bad writing and editing, no number of people who desperately wanna believe otherwise due to their bias or narrative pushing changes that.



Shadow1980 said:
KLAMarine said:

Don't wanna call her a Mary Sue? Fine. I'll settle for calling her an awful character.

If you just don't like her, that's fine. My problem is with the hyperbole coming from some people. They confuse "Character I don't like" or "character I think is poorly written" with "Mary Sue" if the character is powerful or displays any sort of competence. Being powerful doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Neither does being skilled, especially if the skills are not unusual and can be easily justified in-story. The term Mary Sue is meant to apply to characters, almost always self-inserts/"author avatars," who are idealized to an absurd degree and are nominally flawless. It originated from a parody of self-insert Star Trek fanfiction from the early 70s. But in today's internet culture the term just gets abused.

Well for you, I'll simply call her a poorly-written character.