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Animal Liberation Now!!

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I'm against animal cruelty, but the idea of animal rights is too much.

Vegan is just anti-natural. Balanced is ok, vegan is just a sort of extremism to me.



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Immersiveunreality said:
DonFerrari said:

I have helped kill a bull when I was 6. Saw it being unpeeled and separating all the meat. Still eating meat regularly.

I would like to go hunting not because i like killing but to feel the weight/guilt of taking that life on my own shoulders instead of always letting others do it.

That is good.

But the big problem on the argumentation that "if people had to kill what they are going to eat they wouldn't eat meat" or variations of that is that they ignore that for thousands of years that was exactly what human have been doing. They just eat less meat because it was more complicated to find the food and to keep it good for consumption (so certainly would have a lot of sharing when finding a hog or killing a cow).

Still today many people in many countries still kill what they eat (considering how big china and India is and how many undeveloped area are in the world it's possible that even today more than 50% of the world population have had to kill some animal to eat or do it routinely).

And in truth only people with good income and no worries about being famine reserve any time to think about "poor animals dying to feed us".



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Dark_Lord_2008 said:

A Vegan diet is far better for health than the typical high fat, high salt, high sugar, highly processed American diet. Western people that embrace American diet have higher rates of heart disease, diabetes and preventable cancers from eating high processed American diets.
Asian, South American and Africans that stick to their traditional plant based diets have lower rates of heart disease, lower rates of diabetes and lower rates of cancer.

A diet that is plant based: fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts is going to be better for health than eating the high processed American diet. American and Western people have been brainwashed by clever marketing and advertising that claims that American diet is good for health and we only need to do more exercise.

Go Vegan! I fully support the actions of the Vegan protestors and I praise their work spreading the good news of being a Vegan and standing up Animal Rights. Vegans around the world must take action and fight for Animal rights!

Any scientific proof that a vegan diet is healthier than a balanced diet with meat? I don't think so. I think it's not fair to conflate non vegan diets with bad diets. It's perfectly fine to have a healthy diet that includes meat, eggs and dairy. It's all about balance.

Also, what about plant rights? It seems vegans hate plants with a passion.



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DonFerrari said:
Immersiveunreality said:

I would like to go hunting not because i like killing but to feel the weight/guilt of taking that life on my own shoulders instead of always letting others do it.

That is good.

But the big problem on the argumentation that "if people had to kill what they are going to eat they wouldn't eat meat" or variations of that is that they ignore that for thousands of years that was exactly what human have been doing. They just eat less meat because it was more complicated to find the food and to keep it good for consumption (so certainly would have a lot of sharing when finding a hog or killing a cow).

Still today many people in many countries still kill what they eat (considering how big china and India is and how many undeveloped area are in the world it's possible that even today more than 50% of the world population have had to kill some animal to eat or do it routinely).

And in truth only people with good income and no worries about being famine reserve any time to think about "poor animals dying to feed us".

I think the argument gets better if we slightly modify it. "if people had to kill and manufacture what they are going to eat they would eat way less meat"

Eating meat on a daily basis is a relatively new phenomenon made possible by the industrial revolution. If everyone had to kill and manufacture their own meat we would do it in a way less efficient way than we do it right now wich would lead to higher prices for meat. Higher prices for meat leads to less meat consumption.



vivster said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:

A Vegan diet is far better for health than the typical high fat, high salt, high sugar, highly processed American diet. Western people that embrace American diet have higher rates of heart disease, diabetes and preventable cancers from eating high processed American diets.
Asian, South American and Africans that stick to their traditional plant based diets have lower rates of heart disease, lower rates of diabetes and lower rates of cancer.

A diet that is plant based: fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts is going to be better for health than eating the high processed American diet. American and Western people have been brainwashed by clever marketing and advertising that claims that American diet is good for health and we only need to do more exercise.

Go Vegan! I fully support the actions of the Vegan protestors and I praise their work spreading the good news of being a Vegan and standing up Animal Rights. Vegans around the world must take action and fight for Animal rights!

Any scientific proof that a vegan diet is healthier than a balanced diet with meat? I don't think so. I think it's not fair to conflate non vegan diets with bad diets. It's perfectly fine to have a healthy diet that includes meat, eggs and dairy. It's all about balance.

Also, what about plant rights? It seems vegans hate plants with a passion.

Well it depends which vegan you ask, some people are vegan because they don't want animals to suffer, they definitely hate plants more than animals. Other people are vegan because they think eating meat is a huge wast of resources which is true, to get 1 kg of meat, you need 100 times more farmland than for 1 kg of vegetables.



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DonFerrari said:
Immersiveunreality said:

I would like to go hunting not because i like killing but to feel the weight/guilt of taking that life on my own shoulders instead of always letting others do it.

That is good.

But the big problem on the argumentation that "if people had to kill what they are going to eat they wouldn't eat meat" or variations of that is that they ignore that for thousands of years that was exactly what human have been doing. They just eat less meat because it was more complicated to find the food and to keep it good for consumption (so certainly would have a lot of sharing when finding a hog or killing a cow).

Still today many people in many countries still kill what they eat (considering how big china and India is and how many undeveloped area are in the world it's possible that even today more than 50% of the world population have had to kill some animal to eat or do it routinely).

And in truth only people with good income and no worries about being famine reserve any time to think about "poor animals dying to feed us".

A good amount of people would possibly eat less meat and have more respect for what is killed and a small fraction might stop eating meat when they have enough other resources available(healthy nonmeat food,good sources of protein and money)

But yes humanity as a whole is not ready to just stop eating meat and it might be better to focus on the general happiness and fast and painless killing of the animals till we come closer to be able of putting up meat eating restrictions without risking the health of people that just can not afford the vegan diet that is currently a luxury diet.

So yes i agree with your post.



I don't understand how eating animals infringe on their rights. Don't animals breed and grown for human use and consumption usually enjoy really high standards of living (at least much higher than those in the wild)? They are constantly watched and fed, their health is checked 24/7, even when they are sacrificed, everyone makes sure the death is as painless as possible.



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Darwinianevolution said:
I don't understand how eating animals infringe on their rights. Don't animals breed and grown for human use and consumption usually enjoy really high standards of living (at least much higher than those in the wild)? They are constantly watched and fed, their health is checked 24/7, even when they are sacrificed, everyone makes sure the death is as painless as possible.

They enjoy high standards on the things that compliment the meat production but most animals raised for human consumption have a stressfull unhappy life.

I wont say there arent other options but most people buy the cheapest meat that come from those stressfull places,and you can not really blame them for it ofcourse.

Edit: I know a lot of farmers in this country that have a heart for animals and went bankrupt because they could not compete with the cheap meat from other countries with less strict animal laws.



It would be a big positive if the world went vegan. Especially at our current population levels.

Food related emissions would drop by 70%.

We would reverse the health issues plaguing the world caused by the meteoric rise in meat and animal product consumption; similar to what's been happening with the decrease in smoking.

Below is an interesting graphic which details the use of land: basically, a very small amount of the world's calories is acquired from animal products, but nearly 80% of the world's food-based farm land is dedicated to it; that means the remaining little bit of farmland used to grow plants for human consumption provides by far the majority of our nutrients. Basically, we would only need to convert 7-9% of our land to plant based food, and we would be able to regain the 68-70% of the world's food producing farmland to be returned to natural habitats. We could reverse the drastic drop in wildlife (the amount of wildlife left in the world is less than 40% of what it was in the 1970s, less than 20% of what it was before the turn of the 20th century).

It makes logical sense from multiple different angles: environmental, ethical, and ecological. The most pressing is obviously the environmental disaster currently in progress. It is occurring slowly relative to our experience, but terrifyingly quickly on a geological scale (currently, about 1 cm every 2 years, which is up from about 1 cm every 9 years in 1900, and 1 cm every 6 years in 1989); the rising economic cost will, unfortunately, only be something that can't be ignored after tremendous and irreversible damage has already been done. If the world went vegan, we would be able to offset this catastrophe by a significant amount. Population growth is a major issue, but we can mitigate the impact (and even reverse some of the current impact) substantially with a global conversion to veganism.

Here's the graphic I promised:



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Immersiveunreality said:
Darwinianevolution said:
I don't understand how eating animals infringe on their rights. Don't animals breed and grown for human use and consumption usually enjoy really high standards of living (at least much higher than those in the wild)? They are constantly watched and fed, their health is checked 24/7, even when they are sacrificed, everyone makes sure the death is as painless as possible.

They enjoy high standards on the things that compliment the meat production but most animals raised for human consumption have a stressfull unhappy life.

I wont say there arent other options but most people buy the cheapest meat that come from those stressfull places,and you can not really blame them for it ofcourse.

Edit: I know a lot of farmers in this country that have a heart for animals and went bankrupt because they could not compete with the cheap meat from other countries with less strict animal laws.

Then the problem is the laws that regulate animal treatment, not people's diets, wouldn't it?. In recent years there have been appearing a lot of laws that protect the integrity and well being of both cattle and wild animals, but wouldn't the sudden stop of meat consumption just mean the general sacrifice of livestock to adjust the numbers? It's like some variants of donkey in many parts of Spain, people started using them less and less due to mechanization and modern agricultural techniques, and rather than granting donkeys a more comfortable life, they are becoming extinct in some areas, because they are of no use anymore.



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