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The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Forums - Movies Discussion - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Shadow1980 said:
thismeintiel said:

1. Lol, wow, what stretch. You're honestly going to compare the stupid call of a grunt, in a scene that lasts 1 min, with the grand plan from the Order, in an event that is the main plot of the film and takes place over the course of 18 hrs? There's a reason people call the flaws of the OG nitpicks, while this is a huge gaping hole. There's also a reason Lucas was never so stupid to focus the plot of his film on a turtle VS turtle race.

2. Sorry, there's no more argument on this topic. This is not the new movie in a new franchise. We've seen ROTJ. We know how that ended. You don't get a pass for being a lazy writer who can't think up a couple simple scenes to explain it. 

Same thing, no more argument. If your character is the text book definition of a Mary Sue, they are a Mary Sue. And Luke is one? OK, now I know you have never watched the OT.

3. Entitled nerds? Wow, can only fight their opinion with insults? Those nerds deserve to be entitled. Without them there would only be one SW movie that would have failed at the box office. And there wouldn't have been a reason for these movies to exist. To think these movies only belong to Hollywood is the true feeling of entitlement. And those low ratings aren't just being left by diehard fans, either.

It's also pathetic that you think they should just eat whatever movie Disney gives them and continue to go to the theaters for repeat viewings, just cause it's hurting the box office. We are not servants to Hollywood. They put out a product. We don't like it, we let it be known and don't show up.

#1. The point is, the FO isn't somehow so grossly incompetent that they make the Empire seem like tactical/strategic geniuses. Even in popular and well-regarded works of fiction, including each era of Star Wars, incompetent villains are a common trope. People's nostalgia filters let them excuse such things in works they grew up loving, but the exact same thing in a newer work in the same series results in "RUINED FOREVER!" reactions. Nearly every complaint about the new trilogy can be easily lodged against the original trilogy.

#2. No, you wanted more backstory on the FO in the films. You're not entitled to it, and it's not important to the movie's story. It's explained in expanded universe materials. Even without that background material from the books, one can easily infer that the Empire was not completely crushed at Endor (because a galaxy-spanning military force would not simply cease functioning because they lost a single, albeit critical, battle as well as their leader; even in Legends the Thrawn Trilogy showed the Imperial Navy continued on after Endor), and that at least some remnants reorganized and created a new organization dedicated to the Empire's principle of galactic fascist terror. Neither TFA nor TLJ needed any exposition regarding the FO's origins to function as a film. Nor did it need any background on Snoke. Who he was wasn't important to the immediate story of TLJ. Just like Sidious in ROTJ, he merely serves as a plot device with minimal screen time, not a fleshed-out character.

Also, I've watched the OT movies at least 200 times each over the past 30+ years, so bite me. I'm not saying Luke is a Gary Stu, only that Rey is no more a Mary Sue than him. There isn't anything about her character that cannot be explained by examining her background. Again, fans exaggerate things, often to ridiculous levels.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2016/01/04/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-not-a-mary-sue/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/
birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/04/25/for-the-last-time-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue

#3. Stop making excuses for those people. Nobody taking an even-handed, objective critical approach to TLJ would give the film the lowest possible score. This is simply a bunch of irrationally angry fans venting and engaging in nonconstructive behavior. Some people are probably pissed because Rian Johnson didn't validate their pet theories. Others are probably still sore over the old EU material getting de-canonized into "Legends" and simply want to crap all over anything Star Wars made under the Disney umbrella. Others still (probably a small chunk) are just doing it for laughs, or for vague political reasons ("Something, something, SJWs. Something, something, feminists."), or are simply bandwagoning because it's now cool in some circles to hate Star Wars. But regardless of whatever reasons for the needless and undeserved review bombing of TLJ and general hate for it, this is not a half-star film. Anybody that says it is is clearly exaggerating. In fact, it goes beyond exaggeration, because it's not a bad film. It's not even a mediocre film. It's an an entertaining and beautifully-crafted film. I don't think it was perfect, but it was definitely enjoyable.

1. Again, you're doing a poor job of defending it. The Empire was never this grossly incompetent. Maybe individuals low on the totem pole, but never the Emperor. He would have never had a Star Destroyer following the Rebels for almost 18 hrs, just waiting for them to run out of gas (which in itself is a stupid  and mundane concept), as his master plan. That situation would have been handled in 10-15 mins.

2. Yea, sorry but I don't put up with lazy writing on this grand scale. If you're fine with it, whatever. But, it's more than entitlement that makes us demand answers. 

Mary Sue, through and through. She fits the description to a T. You may want to watch the videos d21lewis posted, as they point it out even clearer. Again, we demand writing that isn't so lazy as to include a Mary Sue. SW deserves better.

3. And just as bad are the people posting 9s and 10s, like it's a masterpiece. Like I said before, this isn't about pet theories or the EU (which didn't seem to hurt TFA's box office.) This is about us wanting something, anything interesting, but instead getting a big load of nothing. And boring main and side plots to top it off, filled with humor that didn't hit its mark. Of course, in the end, ratings mean Jack all, but money talks. They don't need to vote online when they can with their wallet. 



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Yeah the empire was established in the old films in taking power when darth vader turned to the dark side.



thismeintiel said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. People go back and watch those films almost yearly. They know the flaws in them. They even show them to their kids, who then also fall in love with them, and their story and world, even though they are so old  that MOST movies in their era aren't even given the time of day by those same kids.

No, this movie fails on its own merits, or lack thereof. The points set up in TFA are completely dropped or lead to nothing special, making the movie incredibly mundane/boring, while taking away the hope from people who defended TFA that those unanswered questions would be answered. The humor is out of place and jarring. And that scene that doesn't belong in a SW movie isn't because it's different, but good, it's because it's horribly kid movie generic.

This.  Exactly this is my main issue with these last two films (Well, that and what they did with Luke). 

When I watched TFA I didnt like it that much but I was willing to forgive all of those holes because I thought they were just building up "the mystery" and that all of those questions would be answered in the next film. But nope.

Now I am with the biggest cinematic blue balls of my entire life.



I saw the infamous Leia scene.
L
O
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Lucas-Rio said:
thismeintiel said:

Yep.  One of the biggest plot holes has to deal with their poor choice of a main plot.  And, as shown in the film, it could have been easily handled in two ways.  One, either you call in another ship to lightspeed directly behind them and blast them or on the other side of them to do a pincer attack.  Or you have a ship lightspeed through them.  Movie over. 

This is why I say it was really just the plot of a TV show, where it would have taken up 15 mins of that show, a believable amount of time for that predicament.  2hrs, which was actually about 18 hrs in movie's time?  Hell no!

That's even more ridiculous since Rose/Finn are leaving the main ship on a tiny spaceship , are doing their whole useless side story on a far away planet, get caught, jailed, escape, and then return on the FO main ship.

During all this time the FO couldn't send one of its numerous ship in front of the rebel main ship they were chasing?

Nobody , even the people who liked this movie can explaint this giant hole.....

Guys, just wanted to point out that this thing you keep calling a plot hole isn't a plot hole. That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Rather, the issue of why the FO didn't take more aggressive action earlier is a "head scratcher."

A plot hole is when something happens in the story that literally makes no physical sense with no explanation. As in, if the story played out in real life and not fiction, then the story literally could not continue from that point. The writer/director divided by zero. A head scratcher is when something should have happened, or a character or characters should have taken more logical action, but didn't.

I'm not defending the film's plot; just merely pointing out the difference between an actual hole and questionable story progression.



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StarOcean said:
Mr.GameCrazy said:

Are you saying I'm wrong for liking The Last Jedi? 

That’s what he’s saying. 

Let me tell you something, the Star Wars community is literal cancer. 40 years of lunatics, not fans, absolute lunatics, have led up to the pile of shit you’ll see here. They have no knowledge of film making or movies in general -and if they claim they do they’re lying in order to appear like they have authority to their opinion, they don’t. They’re hypocrites and liars and will do anything to attack any new ideas or stories if it doesn’t align with their expectations. Why? My theory is that they’re mentally handicapped but feel free to come up with whatever else.

The best way to be a Star Wars fan is to avoid other ‘fans’. If they think the original trilogy is this perfect masterpiece of filmmaking, they’re stupid and should be avoided like the plague. The ones that tell you what you can and can’t like, like this asshole, avoid like the plague. If they think all the movies are perfect -avoid them like the plague. General rule, avoid Star Wars fans like the plague. They’re assholes who only like 3 (sometimes only 2) movies about religious space wizards with lazer katanas who fight evil. The rest of the movies that are about religious space wizards with lazer katanas suck -to them. 

They’ll try to debate you about stupid shit too. They’ll bring up books no one in their right mind would read, episodes of cartoons that explain this, or use “plotholes”, “logic”, and some throw away words that involve filmmaking. Rest assure, they have no clue what they’re saying. It’s the equivalent word diarrhea. So if they tell you you’re wrong -well, I mean these are the same people who, for a while, were completely fine with a horse being a rebel fighter, Luke being cloned and the clone being called “Luuuke”, and similar stupid shit; they have no ground to stand on -just tell them you have the high ground.  

Now you know how I feel about Metroid fans.



Azuren said:
Shadow1980 said:

And if Rey is a Mary Sue, then Luke is a Marty Stu.

Gonna stop you right there:

 

1. Luke's one gift in life was his pilot skills, which was attained through practice, not by virtue of being a female Protagonist.

2. Luke lived a normal Tatooine life; Rey "struggled" and is therefore more interesting by default.

3. Luke got fucked by Jawas and nearly got fucked in the cantina; Rey kicked the shit out of a group of armed individuals.

4. Luke was roughly on Han's level of skill when manning the guns in the MF; Rey is a goddess with all forms of technology even though that's not how the force works.

5. Luke had to struggle and concentrate to use force pull in the Wampa cave; Rey accidentally used force pull to much greater effectiveness with no effort from a further distance.

6. Luke not only lost his first lightsaber duel, but lost a damn hand in the process and nearly died; Rey humiliated Kylo, whose only disadvantage seemed to be because he was male.

7. Luke never pulled off any high level force techniques until he'd trained for 3 years; Rey accidentally did the mind trick on the second try.

8. Luke's skill with a blaster could be explained by his proficiency for gunning things down in his ship on Tatooine; Rey instinctively got a kill shot the second time she ever fired a blaster and proceeded to get an insane kill:shot ratio.

9. Luke struggled and failed to lift an X-wing, and barely managed to lift three rocks while balancing; Rey lifted rocks like it ain't no thang and does zero effort.

 

The fact is Luke had clear parameters on what kind of person he was in IV, which gradually expanded over the course of V and VI, with RotJ showing him as a Jedi after training for a number of years. Rey has been doing things that Final Form Luke had trouble pulling off (his mind trick didn't work every time, whereas Rey has a perfect success rate). Rey is the single worst character in all of Star Wars, and the only ones who disagree seem to be disillusioned about there NEEDING to be a perfect female Jedi as the protagonist.

 

Sorry, but super-flawed Jedi Finn sounds like a much better choice. His journey to become a Jedi would be so much more interesting to watch.

Goddam, I love this post.



Twitter: @d21lewis  --I'll add you if you add me!!

burninmylight said:
Lucas-Rio said:

That's even more ridiculous since Rose/Finn are leaving the main ship on a tiny spaceship , are doing their whole useless side story on a far away planet, get caught, jailed, escape, and then return on the FO main ship.

During all this time the FO couldn't send one of its numerous ship in front of the rebel main ship they were chasing?

Nobody , even the people who liked this movie can explaint this giant hole.....

Guys, just wanted to point out that this thing you keep calling a plot hole isn't a plot hole. That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Rather, the issue of why the FO didn't take more aggressive action earlier is a "head scratcher."

A plot hole is when something happens in the story that literally makes no physical sense with no explanation. As in, if the story played out in real life and not fiction, then the story literally could not continue from that point. The writer/director divided by zero. A head scratcher is when something should have happened, or a character or characters should have taken more logical action, but didn't.

I'm not defending the film's plot; just merely pointing out the difference between an actual hole and questionable story progression.

A plot hole, defined by Oxford Dictionary, is simply: An inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television programme, etc.

If you want to get less board, the definition is: A gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.

The movie already established that they have a tracking device that shows them the exact spot the rebel ship is at. We have established that the rebels can't jump because they have fuel only for one more jump, and the Order will just follow them, which they already did once. For them not to use any logic beyond this point to end the rebels, when they have 18 hrs to do so is a plot hole.

Maybe if it had been a lone pilot in a small ship, who decided not to contact the Order because he thought he could handle it on his own. But, this situation has the Supreme Leader's attention, and therefore the entire force of the Order behind it. If this is their logic in an easily handled situation, then it makes it even more implausible that they are the ones who have taken control of the galaxy. 



Azuren said:

1. Luke's one gift in life was his pilot skills, which was attained through practice, not by virtue of being a female Protagonist.

4. Luke was roughly on Han's level of skill when manning the guns in the MF; Rey is a goddess with all forms of technology even though that's not how the force works.

6. Luke not only lost his first lightsaber duel, but lost a damn hand in the process and nearly died; Rey humiliated Kylo, whose only disadvantage seemed to be because he was male.

Regardless of the other points, what does her gender have to do with anything? Why is there such an issue with having a female hero in a movie like Star Wars? It kind of reminds me of people being upset about having a female Doctor Who :).

1. Rey has not lived a protected life and had to struggle all through her upbringing. This gives her another set of abilities than Luke, for better and for worse. In what way does the movie claim she is better because she is a female?

6. Rey is likely very capable at that type of fighting, she has her staff and knows how do be effective in combat. How does the movie portray him as bad because he is a male? Is captain Phasmas only disadvantage that she is a woman aswell?



In reading through much discussion about TLJ from both sides of the fence, I'm noticing a couple of key points that keep coming up -

1. There are roughly 9 people who hated or disliked TLJ per about 1 or 2 who claims to like/love it.

2. I've yet to hear any real, legitimate, and/or thought provoking arguments as to what makes this film good. Defenders claim it's "different than Empire and full of twists/deep characters." Wat..? And while I AT LEAST credit Rian Johnson for not completely rehashing Empire ala TFA with ANH.. first of all, different doesn't automatically mean better. The plot has to make coherent sense and explain its logic, which it rarely does within the confines of its own parameters, let alone those set in the OT or even TFA. Second, twists usually need to amount to more than merely killing off x major character for shock value or having the twist being "eh, this seemingly major/impactful thing is actually nothing." And third - emo angst, Mary Sue's, awkward Marvel-esque humor, and random characters serving no purpose and/or backstory doesn't equate to complex or interesting characters in my book. I dunno, maybe it's me..? And additionally, Johnson throws the "ingenuity" out the window by closing the film with a scene that looks EXACTLY like the opening scene of Empire anyway. I suppose this is to remind the viewer that yes, they are in fact watching STAR WARS, despite 90% of the movie being an almost ANTITHESIS of Star Wars in many ways, and showing a clear distain for the old lore (even much of TFA lore!) and their fans.. But no, I guess the ground in this world is made of salt or something so, it's different -_-

3. I HAVE heard coherent, well thought out, and intelligent points as to why TLJ falls completely flat. At first I tried to take this with a grain of salt, as some of this stuff could maybe be seen as nitpicking, and you can certainly find a myriad of flaws in the prequels, and even the OT. But at the end of the day those people who enjoy the movie from what I've read/heard have given little to no real arguments as to why these people who hate the movie are wrong, aside from discrediting and downright personal attacks like "quit being stuck in the past, you old foggie" (but like.. you're watching/defending a STAR WARS sequel.. Aren't YOU also stuck in the past? Do you REALLY think you'd have half the interest or would be passionately defending this movie if it was called "Space Strife: The Last Warriors?" If you're so keen on breaking from the past, why not just watch an entirely new Sci Fi series?) or "it's just fanboy rage" (umm, but YOU are the one who likes this movie.. Doesn't that make YOU the fanboy?) or my favorite (ugh) "you just have X political agenda hence why you don't like this film." Give me a break - this film is so blatantly pushing its own political agenda it's actually funny, thus people who like the film are the ones with a "political agenda" if anything. 

Usually when one side of the fence is resorting to 90% discrediting the person/personal attacks while the other group consists of 90% logical arguments - the former side tends to represent the losing side of the argument..

If you like it - cool, no one's stopping you (and I don't mean to put you down for it, despite some of this maybe coming off as such), but stop discrediting those who ARE voicing their displeasure of it, and at least counter them with your own arguments as to why the movie is good, which I've seen very little of thus far. I quite like Revenge of the Sith, but at the same time, I recognize its MANY faults and I would never try and make my case for why it's so amazing and especially why people are so wrong in disliking it. Just shrug it off as a guilty pleasure and move on. Trust me kids, I was there in 2005 when EP3 came out (I was a teenager).. I get it, you want to get verification as to why you're drawn to something so flawed but sometimes there's just very little there :P

Last edited by DarthMetalliCube - on 26 December 2017