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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - 85 Meta (49 Critics) - 93% Rotten (169 Critics)

Forums - Movies Discussion - Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - 85 Meta (49 Critics) - 93% Rotten (169 Critics)

TruckOSaurus said:
Shadow1980 said:
I wonder how much of the Force Awakens hate is genuine and how much of it is just "It's popular so it sucks" bandwagoning. I genuinely enjoyed it and Rogue One. Maybe not quite as much at any of the original trilogy movies, but they're still leaps and bounds better than the prequels. Phantom Menace will always be the weakest of the Star Wars movies, and was the only one where I walked out of the theater less than impressed.

I know that I loved TFA when it came out and then I got to see the flaws in it. The most glaring one being that it follows A New Hope much too closely but it did a great job of introducing new characters that we care about and setting things in place for The Last Jedi.

Also, I'd say Attack of the Clones is the worst of the prequels, it's almost unwatchable.

Yeah, it was the same for me. When I saw TFA for the first time in theater I enjoyed it quite alot and walked out of the theater on an adrenaline rush. As I recall at that time I rated it as the 3rd best Star Wars movie after ROTJ and ESB. It wasn't until I bought a copy later on and rewatched it that I noticed it's flaws, particularly how safe they played it with the heavily formulaic plot that basically copied ANH to a t. But, even now I still consider it to be a solid 8/10 movie, and better than any of the prequels. 

I also think AOTC is the worst. The cringeworthy Anakin-Padme romance and the incredibly slow build-up to the climax at Geonosis damage it quite alot. Thankfully it has some really cool action scenes and special effects such as Yoda's battle against Dooku and the ship battle between Jango Fett and Obi-Wan, which redeem the movie enough to make it worth the occasional rewatch imo. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 13 December 2017

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"I hate Star Wars" is a new hipster thing?



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haxxiy said:

I feel like this trilogy, instead of approaching Lucas' original vision, is a bait-and-switch from the older characters we love, to marketable cute droids, aliens and a young, ever shifting "diverse" cast of characters who of course are paid less, and the mass-produced films of an expanded universe of little creativity but plenty of executive meddling.

There was an interview with someone in charge that was to the effect of casting diversity or especially having a woman lead because they want to get the woman viewer demographic to like star wars.

The person said that star wars fans are so die hard that they could do anything and they would still go and watch the film, so they aren't worried at all about trying to please them, but instead go after the non star wars fans and try and convert them to such.



TruckOSaurus said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Oh man this is reassuring. After Rogue One and all the behind-the-scenes drama with Trevorrow and Lord/Miller I've been pessimistic.

You didn't like Rogue One? I loved it. In retrospect, I find it was a much better movie than The Force Awakens.

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I won't read critics since I want to know next to nothing about the plot when I go see it at the premiere tomorrow but this score makes me hopeful it'll be good!

For me it was disappointing. I'd probably rank it fifth, behind the original trilogy and TFA, and ahead of the prequel trilogy. 

I think it has a few good things going for it: 1) a treatment of the rebellion as occupying a moral gray zone; 2) some great visual effects and cinematography; and 3) a spectacular third-act space battle, arguably the best in the entire series.

Now, the bad.

The characters are uninteresting, apart from K-2SO. Krennic is a toothless and unmemorable villain. Erso is boring, and usually a passive onlooker in her own movie. The rest of the supporting cast struggles to be noticed. A movie with a large ensemble cast like this can work -- look at The Guns of Navarone or Ocean's 11 -- but you need a bunch of sympathetic or dynamic characters.

Reshoots really hurt the flow, the pacing, and the content of the movie. If Edwards had been allowed to film unencumbered, I think the final product would have been better. The first two acts drag and drag, setting up an admittedly rousing third act finale.

The digital actors. Every time the cartoon that was Grand Moff Tarkin showed up on screen, I was immediately thrown out of the action and reminded, awkwardly and painfully, that I was watching a movie. The same goes for Carrie Fisher's digital cameo, which is the last thing we see in the film. What a terrible way to punctuate what was a thrilling, breathless scene just before.

Fan service. To be fair, TFA is also guilty of this, and of mining the recognizable people, places, and things we now associate with Star Wars. But Rogue One took it too far. Darth Vader's role was too big -- a product of reshoots, from what I understand. The appearance of Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan was gratuitous, as was Bail Organa's cameo. It goes on and on: R2-D2, C-3PO, Red Leader, Whills, Yavin Base, and of course that awful final shot.



EricFabian said:
"I hate Star Wars" is a new hipster thing?

Not sure about hipster, but you can call it new, yeah, because it's been only 2 years since Star Wars stopped being a genuinely interesting creative work of art and became a fanservice-filled cash cow milked endlessly by committees.



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I remain sceptical. The Force Awakens was also very well received by critics, but was actually pretty horrendous.
There has only really been two good Star Wars movies ever. The first one is of course the best, then Empire Strikes Back, both still have their issues and are nowhere near as good as they are made out to be, but at least somewhat enjoyable.
But it is a franchise that has this fanatical following that will watch whatever crap that gets released with the name Star Wars on it.



mZuzek said:
coolbeans said:

Umm...I suppose this is the part where I should say "Exhibit A!" in reference to what I said previously.  There's a pretty good reason as to why A New Hope is the template looked upon in respect to story structure.  The build-up, character introductions, etc. fall at a rate that keeps things briskly going along.  Empire's 2nd Act?  Eh...gotta say that's the weak spot.  

So now we're just going off the rails to shit not even associated to pacing...to criticize my comment regarding pacing.  I never stated Empire wasn't the 'deeper' film of the two.  Your subjective feelings of how you find ANH's climax as 'boring' doesn't really matter either.  

But the main reason why the ending was boring was because of a pacing issue in its build-up. The movie spends far too much time with the main characters in the Death Star, and once they escape, you barely get a couple of scenes with the rebels planning the attack and suddenly it's back at the Death Star again. It wasn't handled well, and it made the ending quite unfulfilling because of how the Death Star suddenly went from "most dangerous place to be" to "the thing to destroy" in only a few minutes.

Then again, I see this pacing complaint also directed at Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and its second act when compared to the original, so I guess I just can't hope to understand. I'd much rather have a movie that takes its time and develops its characters in the second act (which is often referred to as the "development" part of a narrative for crying out loud) than one that is just nonstop action and excitement and shit going on all the time.

I just don't follow that complaint.  I'd say the build-up is 'economic' in between the escape/attack of The Death Star, and given the context of the Falcon being bugged, the hurried pace marries that desperation quite well.  And it's also important to note just how many key character bits there are in the supposedly overextended time of the characters trapped on The Death Star: Obi-Wan's sacrifice, Leia's quick thinking, etc.  ANH's template is so regarded because of how often you'll see character defined THROUGH action.  And it complements the Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon inspiration quite well in the process.  

It all depends on how its handled, really.  It's not like all I'm craving wall-to-wall action for these films.  But when that development can feel like exposition dump or incorporated oddly, I'm going to point it out.  Guardians 2 is a decent example of some needless stuff that should've been edited out.  The few 'comedic' quips undercutting some emotional line or the 'feelings dump' that occurred after specific fight scenes (Nebula & Gamora).  Mind you, this is coming from someone who's often on shaky ground as to which of the two is better for BOTH respective IP's we're talking about.  I'm only saying: let's not hoist them on too high a pedestal; in regards to Star Wars, the majority of the time I see "Empire>>>>ANH" is from diehard circlejerks who only seem excited to state that b/c Empire's the one with the least amount of Lucas' control--and that by default hands it the win.



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coolbeans said:
mZuzek said:

But the main reason why the ending was boring was because of a pacing issue in its build-up. The movie spends far too much time with the main characters in the Death Star, and once they escape, you barely get a couple of scenes with the rebels planning the attack and suddenly it's back at the Death Star again. It wasn't handled well, and it made the ending quite unfulfilling because of how the Death Star suddenly went from "most dangerous place to be" to "the thing to destroy" in only a few minutes.

Then again, I see this pacing complaint also directed at Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and its second act when compared to the original, so I guess I just can't hope to understand. I'd much rather have a movie that takes its time and develops its characters in the second act (which is often referred to as the "development" part of a narrative for crying out loud) than one that is just nonstop action and excitement and shit going on all the time.

I just don't follow that complaint.  I'd say the build-up is 'economic' in between the escape/attack of The Death Star, and given the context of the Falcon being bugged, the hurried pace marries that desperation quite well.  And it's also important to note just how many key character bits there are in the supposedly overextended time of the characters trapped on The Death Star: Obi-Wan's sacrifice, Leia's quick thinking, etc.  ANH's template is so regarded because of how often you'll see character defined THROUGH action.  And it complements the Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon inspiration quite well in the process.  

It all depends on how its handled, really.  It's not like all I'm craving wall-to-wall action for these films.  But when that development can feel like exposition dump or incorporated oddly, I'm going to point it out.  Guardians 2 is a decent example of some needless stuff that should've been edited out.  The few 'comedic' quips undercutting some emotional line or the 'feelings dump' that occurred after specific fight scenes (Nebula & Gamora).  Mind you, this is coming from someone who's often on shaky ground as to which of the two is better for BOTH respective IP's we're talking about.  I'm only saying: let's not hoist them on too high a pedestal; in regards to Star Wars, the majority of the time I see "Empire>>>>ANH" is from diehard circlejerks who only seem excited to state that b/c Empire's the one with the least amount of Lucas' control--and that by default hands it the win.

I hate this notion that any kind of character development done through cold hard dialog/exposition is inherently a bad thing, as if in real life we always solved all of our problems only through actions. I'm not sure if you have siblings, but I always had fights with my brother growing up and I can say that kind of stuff between Nebula/Gamora is definitely how these things happen, it was only natural they had the "feelings dump" moment after everything they've been through. Also the "comedic quips undercutting emotional line" complaint is a very shallow one, because mostly everytime that happens is in some way to either strengthen the emotional moment or to provide some extra character development showing their points of view on stuff. As in, whereas some people may think the whole "hook up with hot women and fought robots" line at the end was a stupid way to break a dramatic moment, I think that was the touch that made it all the more emotional and personal. That is to say, a lot of people really don't understand that the way the humor is used in these movies is very often used to expose character weaknesses that'll be developed later (obviously not everything follows this pattern, and I'd agree GotG Vol. 2 has a few purely dumb/stupid moments that break the pace, but they are few and far between).

Personally, having seen the movie well over a dozen times, I can say I'd only edit out 3 moments which combined, probably last less than 2 minutes. Everything else is quite necessary for the story to make sense and develop in an interesting way, including a lot of so-called "stupid jokes".

Either way, this is a comment on GotG and not Star Wars, so maybe I should just stop by now.



I dunno how to feel about the last movie, but I'm still eager to watch it. Rogue One on the other hand was a joy to watch.



 

              

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Cloudman said:
I dunno how to feel about the last movie, but I'm still eager to watch it. Rogue One on the other hand was a joy to watch.

 

I thought it was alright. Had a boring cast of characters with almost zero depth.