Are children not a concern regarding alcohol? Parents want their children to avoid alcohol. I'm not an anti-booze guy, I just don't want people getting into legal trouble for using it responsibly; see? Same argument. 

My arguments are not weak. I gave a perfect example of how even I, a person in a pretty good position, couldn't get an ID at first. Plus, it's more than just "restrictions" that make it hard. Location and hours matter as well. Like I said before, imagine someone who works 10-6 but the DMV closes at 5 and the closest one is 10 miles away and you rely on public transportation. They don't have a "white collar" job with flexible hours, so they're at the mercy of their boss. As I said before, there are factors that may not affect you, but they affect others.

Also, you again ignore proof that I provided. "I don't believe Republicans feel a need to deter minorities from voting".....then why are they studying breakdowns of IDs by race, then finding out which IDs minorities use the most often, then disqualifying that form as being valid for voting?

"In April 2013, a top aide to the Republican House speaker asked for 'a breakdown, by race, of those registered voters in your database that do not have a driver’s license number.'

Months later, the North Carolina legislature passed a law that cut a week of early voting, eliminated out-of-precinct voting and required voters to show specific types of photo ID — restrictions that election board data demonstrated would disproportionately affect African Americans and other minorities"

Oh yea, they also found out that many black voters prefer early voting, so they cut early voting hours. The proof is in the pudding. Stop denying it just because you "don't think Republicans have a reason". In this regard, it doesn't matter what you "think". I'm showing you evidence that they're doing the exact opposite of what you think.  

And yes, the ACLU is left wing. I'm not denying that. But just because one organization is left wing doesn't mean they represent the Democratic party platform. I don't understand why that is hard to understand. That's like saying the KKK is right wing, so they represent the Republican party. These things are not one in the same. Do you agree with every right wing organization? That's what your logic results in. If it's a right wing organization, then that must mean all Republicans are behind it.

And again, you ignore the proof that was placed right in your face. "Democratic leaders have proposed requiring every worker in the nation to carry a national identification card with biometric information". Hell, that proposal was actually for immigration reform so that immigrants could be more easily known about. So your idea that "they don't even want to track illegals" is just made up nonsense. I will repeat, just because the ACLU is against something doesn't mean they represent the Democratic platform. Actually, you already mentioned that you're not anti-pot and you're for responsible use of marijuana. Well, there are right wing groups against marijuana. If right wing groups are against marijuana, then so are many Republicans, right. But you sound like you're a Republican. But you're not anti-pot! 

Do you see how that logic doesn't hold water?

Legalize illegal immigrants who don't have any history of violent crime. Let them pay a fine and get them legal so they can start paying taxes. Nuff said. The overwhelming majority of these people are good, hard working people. Impliment tighter immigration laws for those who want to come in later, but those who are already here, legalize. Living in fear is not what America is about, these people don't want anything different than what immigrants from Ireland, UK, Germany, Italy, wanted 80 years ago, which is simply a better future for their kids. 

Voter ID should be free for everyone and easy to obtain. 

You should be able to vote if you've served your time. Why should you never be able to vote for example if you committed a felony at age 19 and are say 35 now? If you can get a job and are allowed to function in every other aspect of society, you should be able to vote. This is only a way to disenfranchise large portions of the population since the US locks up more people than other country on the planet. We have more people in jail than China despite having like a fraction of the population.

Oh and perhaps it's time to stop making jail a for-profit institution. We're paying tax dollars to make these companies running these prisons obscenely rich. And because they're rich of course there is strong motivation to make sure they are fully stocked, no one wants to fund a 1/3 full prison.  

Get all these political ideological bullshit out of the way. I think if presented on the basis of the *issues* most Americans could come to a fair consensus on a lot of these issues, they've just become so politicized that no common sense is allowed. 

Alcohol is already legal and has harsh penalties for using it illegally. Incase you weren't aware.

I find it hard to believe somebody that works a full time job can't seem to find an opportunity to eventually get a state ID. Again, you just expect too little of people.

One last time, I believe the required ID for voting should state ID or military ID. Those seem to be accepted in states requiring ID.

Are you really treating ACLU and KKK as equals? A terrible argument I could only get from a dem, the ACLU reflects the views of many left wing voters and politicis. The left does not repudiate ACLU, they support them. The right does repudiate the KKK, they're a fringe extremist group. More proof your arguments are weak.

I believe some democrats support the national ID, but I also believe much and maybe most wouldn't support it for reasons I listed.

Obama's immigration reform was more interested in amnesty. While Trump is more intersted in dealing with criminal illegals first then maybe we'll talk amnesty. Perhaps people didn't trust Obama because he wasn't tough enough on criminal illegals. I genuinely hope a reasonable solution is found during the Trump administration.

I lean right politically, but a lot of my social views are more libertarian. Not all dems support legalization of marijuana by the way. I'm in Arizona and legalization of marijuana lost big because dems didn't support it either.

Man, this is frustrating. My last response, and then I'm done. 

1. About alcohol: yes, I know it's legal. Hence the point of my comparison. Surely you didn't miss that point. Alcohol is way more detrimental to a person, much more damaging. Yet, it's legal, because we place the responsibility on the user and enact laws to punish those who are irresponsible. So, why is marijuana, which is medically safer in all aspects, illegal? The same arguments that keep alcohol legal logically make sense for marijuana

2. About IDs: you "find it hard to believe....."; for the last time, things that may not affect you, may affect others. You need to accept that. I don't expect too little of people. I'm empathetic to their position. Like I said, even I wasn't able to get an ID at first. You seem to lack that empathy. Just look at your statement saying you believe only state and military ID should be used. You are for more restrictive voter ID. Why is military ID ok, but not a college ID? Military ID doesn't show where you live at, and non-citizens can be in the military (albeit, they must be a green card holder). This falls right in line with Republicans finding out which IDs minority most often use, then making them ineligible to vote. 

3. About the ACLU: it seems you really think ACLU = Democratic platform. You really are misguided and stuck in your bubble, or at least, you only hear what you want to hear. Anyway, forget the KKK then. What about the Family Research Council? They lobby to make sure gays have absolutely 0 rights. They aren't "fringe". The Republican Party doesn't repudiate them. So that means their values represent the whole Republican Party, then. You look extremely silly when you say an interest group represents an entire party's values. You should know better. 

4. About National ID: it doesn't matter what you believe or how you feel. I've already given you the facts that show your belief on this issue is wrong. 

5. You'd think Democrats would be all for marijuana legalization, but as you've pointed out, Democrats in Arizona don't want it. Funny, just prior, you acted like everything was a monolith and because the ACLU is against National ID, and they're left wing, then all (or most) Democrats are against National ID. Yet, in your own backyard, there's proof that it's not a monolith on a particular issue. So, why is it that when the ACLU is against something, it means most Democrats are against it; but when actual Democratic voters in your state didn't support  marijuana, it's not indicative of the rest of Democrats (as many more Democrats are for its legalization)? I know I said I'm done after this, so I shouldn't end with a question....but the cognitive dissonance here is astounding. 

The Republicans did a lot of things to slow down progress IMO, and Obama was dealt a bad hand to begin with when he first step into office but he played it the best way he could.

Are you glad the republicans shutdown the government because of Obama care?

Here is what happened From October 1 through 16, 2013.

Nearly 800,000 federal employees were out of work without pay.

Nonessential departments and employees were off work.

One man mowed the lawn outside the national monuments.

Veterans was pissed off, did not receive their benefits.

It cost the country $24 billion.

"You don't like a particular policy or a particular president? Then argue for your position. Go out there and win an election," Obama said.

  surprise surprise. the republicans did.

Just to help put this in to perspective. You are arguing with someone who finds it fine to rape women and kids, but objects to lawyers DEFENDING those that the rapist.

No, you didn't read that wrong. The act of rape is ok, DEFENDING rape is ok. Once you let that lack of logic sink in you will truly realize just how absolutely pointless this argument you are having is.

So having had several discussions I can agree it is highly frustrating and you absolutely should quit - if anything for your sanity. Although I found your posts informative and well written.

Of course it happens.  I never said otherwise.  What I debunked was the idea that 3 million illegal immigrants voted and that non-citizens can use special driver's licenses to register and vote.   Small pockets of voter fraud (from all parties) happens.  But this notion that it's only for the Democratic party, that 3 million voted for Clinton or that illegals can get a DL and then vote is spread by websites with an agenda or people that don't like researching what they share on the Internet. 

Just to help put this in to perspective. You are arguing with someone who finds it fine to rape women and kids, but objects to lawyers DEFENDING those that the rapist.

No, you didn't read that wrong. The act of rape is ok, DEFENDING rape is ok. Once you let that lack of logic sink in you will truly realize just how absolutely pointless this argument you are having is.

So having had several discussions I can agree it is highly frustrating and you absolutely should quit - if anything for your sanity. Although I found your posts informative and well written.