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Forums - Website Topics - The thumbs down system is broken, abused by trolls

 

The thumbs down/up system

Is abused and should be only thumb up 15 23.44%
 
Is abused and should be given as privilege 4 6.25%
 
Is abused and those who a... 8 12.50%
 
Is what it is, and reflec... 37 57.81%
 
Total:64
Ganoncrotch on 19 January 2016
Dadrik said:
AEGRO said:
LOL at the poll.

Something like,

Option A) Im right.
Option B) Im right.
Option C) Im right.
Option D) Im right.

Choose wisely!

 

Indeed. "I'm right and whoever disagrees is wrong/has poor character".

Talk about arrogance.

If the poll had a thumbing system I'm sure we definitely couldn't see it by now :)





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Mummelmann on 20 January 2016

That poll is ridiculous. Anyway; does anyone really care about up or down votes? I personally, often appreciate OP's posts regardless of thumbs down, same as I often ignore or completely disagree with posts and comments with many thumbs up.
To me, it's not a big deal.



Azuren on 20 January 2016

"People don't like my opinion, take away the annular to numerically show how unpopular my opinion is."



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

AsGryffynn on 20 January 2016
pokoko said:
The system is a failure. The way people down-vote posts for simply presenting an opinion they do not share is pathetic and counter productive to actual discussion. The general population of internet users cannot handle self-moderation. As it stands, unless you post something you know is going to mirror popular opinion, you might as well not post at all.

This. The only other place with a system even worse than this one is Narutoforums where it's a popularity contest and Sonyfaqs due to biased mods that always favor the winner of the generation or whoever is in the sales lead...





potato_hamster on 20 January 2016
padib said:

Thanks Mummelmann.

potato_hamster said:

Put it another way - you're assuming that the 70 million people that supposedly bought an PS2 and not a PS3  (and you have no way of knowing  how many of the 86 million PS3s sold were sold to PS2 owners) decided to buy a Xbox 360 instead or something.  That's an enormous assumption. If you're not making this assumption, then you have to demonstrate that these 70 million people can't explain the increase in PS4 sales. Have you considered that perhaps the combined sales of PS3 and X360 do not actually represent all of those who are interested in gaming on a playstation or an xbox? AKA - the market may not be expanding. The PS4 and X1 just may be more appealing to the market than the PS3 and X360 are. Of course. you have no way of knowing that.

Also in the history of video games: PS1 sales, (lifetime and year on year), PS2 sales, (lifetime and year on year). We have far more sales info to draw on than just PS3 and X360 sales. I also don't see why its shocking that a console would outsell its predecessor after being on the market for seven years. You're acting as if that's some unheard of feat. The PS5 will likely be out in 4 years time, which will more or less mark the end of the PS4. If you think a console can't outsell its predecessor or come very close to outselling it before its sucessor comes out, then maybe you should go back and look at the history a little bit more.


But yes, you're literally using an appeal to tradition fallacy. We can call it an "appeal to common practice" fallacy if you like but it means the same thing. Assuming something will continue on a certain path because you have no data that proves it has not is a logical fallacy. There's also a bit of "argument from ignorance here" - "You can't prove me wrong so I'm probably right". Either way, your mental process in coming to your conclusion isn't based on nearly as much logic as you expect.

Potatohamster. You are the one making the claim that the market will grow. You need to give a solid reason to expect the PS4 and X1 to sell in total 1.5 times the amount sold by the prior gen in a similar timeframe (or less, since you mention a total of 6 years and the other two have been out for almost 10-12 years now). That would total 255m units at least...

By comparison, the greatest-selling console in history sold 158m units. To expect the P4+X1 to sell near that amount requires reason. The burden is on you I'm afraid.

Yeah, you can't just shift the burden of proof like that. You're the one making claims that the market has stagnated.

I have made no claim that the market has grown. None. I'm simply mentioning that there are numerous factors that could have caused the market to grow, or that the market could be bigger than the sales of last generation indicatie. Just like your claims that the market size has stagnated, you have absolutely zero evidence to refute the possibility that the market could have grown. You are assuming it hasn't, so if you're going to claim tha the market has stagnated, then the burden is on you to support that claim. Again, it is your job to provide evidence that "No, the introduction of consoles into China and other developing markets has not increased the market", because these things have happened, and objectively there are more markets to purchase a PS4 in than there were to purchase a PS3 in. So please go ahead, prove that this is not a factor.

Again, I never said I expected both the PS4 and the X1 to sell at a rate of 1.5x higher than the PS3 and X360 over the next few years - but let's employ your train of thought. You want evidence to support that? Just use the evidence you have that the market has not grown (none). If we can assume that the market has not grown because we don't have any hard numbers to say it definitely has, then we can assume that the sales of the PS4 and X1 will not drop off because we don't have any hard numbers to derfinitely say it will. By your own logic, you should be the one expecting the X1 and PS4 to sell at a rate 1.5 higher than last generation, not me.

But again, I'm not making this claim, I'm just using your reasoning against you.





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potato_hamster on 20 January 2016
padib said:
potato_hamster said:

Yeah, you can't just shift the burden of proof like that. You're the one making claims that the market has stagnated.

I have made no claim that the market has grown. None. I'm simply mentioning that there are numerous factors that could have caused the market to grow, or that the market could be bigger than the sales of last generation indicatie. Just like your claims that the market size has stagnated, you have absolutely zero evidence to refute the possibility that the market could have grown. You are assuming it hasn't, so if you're going to claim tha the market has stagnated, then the burden is on you to support that claim. Again, it is your job to provide evidence that "No, the introduction of consoles into China and other developing markets has not increased the market", because these things have happened, and objectively there are more markets to purchase a PS4 in than there were to purchase a PS3 in. So please go ahead, prove that this is not a factor.

Again, I never said I expected both the PS4 and the X1 to sell at a rate of 1.5x higher than the PS3 and X360 over the next few years - but let's employ your train of thought. You want evidence to support that? Just use the evidence you have that the market has not grown (none). If we can assume that the market has not grown because we don't have any hard numbers to say it definitely has, then we can assume that the sales of the PS4 and X1 will not drop off because we don't have any hard numbers to derfinitely say it will. By your own logic, you should be the one expecting the X1 and PS4 to sell at a rate 1.5 higher than last generation, not me.

But again, I'm not making this claim, I'm just using your reasoning against you.

Stagnated is an immense word. Last gen's sales were record-breaking from all points. If the sales stay at the levels of last gen, that would not be stagnating at all. I understand it's a term, but it's not the correct one. If the sales stay the same, that will be, to me, quite unexpected.

The proof that the burden was on you is the fact that you started with the China argument among others, and now I must retort. Because otherwise there is no reason to expect things to change.

About China, I'm not convinced that the people there have taken an interest in games. I am by no means an insider, but I have spoken with a native from there about it and there seems to be little interest in consoles there. Perhaps they are content with more F2P type games. Either way, so far RoW (which includes China and the other countries you mention) represents 1/7th of the global numbers for PS4. This is the same ratio as it was for the PS2. There is little to tell me that this number will suddenly inflate or change rates in the next few years, as the ban was lifted in 2013. Lastly, the PS4's weakest market is by far japan (by virtue of the tastes and games being released on PS4 being more western-centric). For that reason I see little reason why if japan shows little interest why other asian countries should. Sure it's another country, but their tastes are certainly closer than they are to ours.

As for the 2nd paragraph, that is not my logic, you must have misunderstood or I was unclear. I believe that the total sales of this gen will not exceed the total sales of last gen, because I believe last gen sales (PS3+360) were records and unusually high. Hence, if the total sales when the gen is over should not exceed 170m, then the rate at which games are being sold now is much bigger than the expected rate to fulfill the same number by the end of 10 years (34m in 2 years). If it is to happen in 6 years (the number you mentioned earlier), then so much more reason to expect the rate to be abnormally high at the moment.


Last gen's sales are only record breaking if you count the Wii, which as time goes on looks more and more like a fad/anomoly and not a representation of the the console video game market. Otherwise, PS3/X360 sales (174 M) were actually down compared to PS2/XB1 sales (182M) So no, not records. And yes, stagnating is the correct word. You just don't like it because it makes your claim look horrible.

No where did I say that the introductions of consoles in China definitely grew the market significantly. I simply said it's one of many ways that the market could have grown. For all i know it had little to no effect in growing the market, and for all you know it had a huge effect on growing the market. You have no idea, but you readily dismiss it, based on, by your own admission, assumptions, and conversations with someone from China. Good job. The chinese people I went to university with were easily some of the biggest gamers I met, and they said gaming was huge where they were from, but it was difficult to get new games because it was against the law. See how useless anecdotes are?

As for me not understanding, sorry. Not the case. You're using the fact that you don't know to assume things have not changed. If that's acceptable logic to you, then you have to be willing to accept that same logic when applied to other scenario. I'm pointing out how there's some cognitive dissonance here.





bananaking21 on 20 January 2016
Roronaa_chan said:
padib said:

Okay, you are the clever one, how is it dumb?

If you are able to emit such a judgement, support it with logic. Otherwise stay quiet.

 

Don't ask others to support something with logic when you haven't done that yourself to begin with

 





potato_hamster on 20 January 2016
padib said:
potato_hamster said:


Last gen's sales are only record breaking if you count the Wii, which as time goes on looks more and more like a fad/anomoly and not a representation of the the console video game market. Otherwise, PS3/X360 sales (174 M) were actually down compared to PS2/XB1 sales (182M) So no, not records. And yes, stagnating is the correct word. You just don't like it because it makes your claim look horrible.

No where did I say that the introductions of consoles in China definitely grew the market significantly. I simply said it's one of many ways that the market could have grown. For all i know it had little to no effect in growing the market, and for all you know it had a huge effect on growing the market. You have no idea, but you readily dismiss it, based on, by your own admission, assumptions, and conversations with someone from China. Good job. The chinese people I went to university with were easily some of the biggest gamers I met, and they said gaming was huge where they were from, but it was difficult to get new games because it was against the law. See how useless anecdotes are?

As for me not understanding, sorry. Not the case. You're using the fact that you don't know to assume things have not changed. If that's acceptable logic to you, then you have to be willing to accept that same logic when applied to other scenario. I'm pointing out how there's some cognitive dissonance here.

You are forgetting that the PS2 was a mainstream console by virtue of the games that sold on it, many of which migrated to the Wii, hence why 174M sales for the PS3-X360, ignoring Wii numbers, is by far much greater than the 182M sold on the PS2-XO. Apples to apples my friend.

If since 2013 the market has not grown in China, it is fair to assume it will have little impact at the end of the next 4 years.

Perhaps you see something I don't, but so far I'm pretty confident that this gen's sales will not surpass 174M by virtue of PS4 and X1 alone, especially when most of those sales are driven by the PS4 (so the burden mainly being on one console).

I don't think there is any cognitive dissonance other than your insistence to find one.

I'm sorry, but it appears I passed grade 3 math, and you never. 174 is "much greater" than 182? Not on this planet.  In fact, not on any planet.

Many PS2 owners migrated to the Wii? Did they now? Do you have a source for that? Let me guess - another assumption? What percentage of PS2 owners bought a Wii and never bought a PS3 or Xbox 360. You would have to know that to make that claim.

But here is where you might wish you didn't make that claim. Because it puts your foot in your mouth and you don't even know it

So here we go. If PS2 owners went with the wii instead of the PS3 that would mean there was 70 million people who bought a PS2 and not a PS3 that bought a Wii instead. Using that logic,  you also expect that "mainstream" Wii owners are going to buy a "mainstream" PS4 this generation. There's no reason to expect they shouldn't, is there?  So, by your logic we should be assuming that there should be another 70 million consoles sold between the PS4 and X1 this generation.

So let's take PS3 + X1's sales (174 million) and add these supposed 70 million Wii owners that should now be buying a PS4 or X1. What's that number? 244 million. That's pretty close to the 255 million you're claiming the PS4 and X1 would reach if they continue at this pace.

Imagine that.

Issue settled, then I assume. You pretty much have to start believing that this generation isn't front loaded using your own flawed reasoning.





potato_hamster on 20 January 2016
padib said:
potato_hamster said:

I'm sorry, but it appears I passed grade 3 math, and you never. 174 is "much greater" than 182? Not on this planet.  In fact, not on any planet.

Seriously? If that's all you took from that, I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps try grade 3 again. But not math. Try common sense.

Maybe you should read the rest of my comment to see what else I took from it.





potato_hamster on 20 January 2016
padib said:
potato_hamster said:

Maybe you should read the rest of my comment to see what else I took from it.

I was annoyed and stopped reading.

Ha! Or is it because I pointed out how far you stuck your foot in your mouth, used your own reasoning against you again, and you'd rather pout than actually make any sort of a counter.

But that's fine. It just makes you look bad.