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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Bayonetta 2 - an expression of freedom and not sexism

 

Is Bayonetta 2 sexist?

No 308 71.46%
 
Yes 73 16.94%
 
See Results 50 11.60%
 
Total:431
OneTwoThree said:
Have fun with the game everyone, It looks stylish and is very polished. But it's the kind of content I'd rather not see on a Nintendo console.

Bayonetta is basically a horror flick. Like Halloween, Chainsaw, Alien etc. Why do you think it releases near Halloween. It's fine you don't like it. Not everyone will go and watch Jason murder people. Or watch someones chest explode from an alien. But saying it's wrong to be on a Nintendo console is not right. Nintendo wants everyone. That should include Rated M content. I think making those total shit learning games, or movie tie-in games have no point in existing. But they make money. They have their intended audiance.

Loving gore isn't something that Americans only do. Gantz, for example, originates from Japan. And goes way beyond anything Alien does. That Manga exists soley for the gore factor. Hell, a Japanese movie called Versus can't be even rated in the US. It exceeds the R rating we have. Whenever it got released in theaters, things had to be cut out.



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Sexism is not about sex(sex) is about sex(gender). Sexism is when someone think that women are stupid, worse than men or women are weaker, they can't hanndle with many things, they are only for have sex etc.

Bayonetta is stronger than men in game and she is independant thats why her erotic style is not sexist (but sexy ;) - and if you think women can't be sexy you are sexist ;) ).



Tachikoma said:
curl-6 said:

She's not the main character though, and she is in fact tortured by Bayonetta.

Read the edit.

Abuse is not empowerment.

I agree with you, they are diferent things, and I don't think they are on the same spectrum.
Bayonetta tortures. Bayonetta abuses and kills and destroys and devastates. I don't think anybody is making the case that Bayonetta is a good moral person and role model. Very few characters in any games are good moral people. This is a power fantasy.

But she as a character certainly seems personally empowered rather than subjugated in her own sexuality. She is characterized by it because she "choses" to be. She indulges in it and the game emphasizes that a lot, but she is not reduced to it. In my opinion her depiction, to answer the question the thread is meant to address, is on the whole not sexist, merely indulgent.



I've played the demo and so far it didn't seem that sexist



Consoles owned: Wii U wii gamecube DS DS lite DSi 3DS Xbox 360 Gameboy Gameboy color Gameboy advance Gameboy Advance sp Gameboy micro and PC. 

Tachikoma said:
curl-6 said:

Interesting you say this cos the character you claim is abused in Bayonetta is not human either.

So once again, you draw a flawed comparison.

In appearing in both doppleganger and Joy form as a humanoid, it fulfills the requirement of being a "portrayal of another human".

Again, going off topic does not detract from the original point, Abuse is not empowerment.
And unfortunately for you, Abuse has no requirement for the victim to be human.

No, it doesn't. If I dressed up as a camel, that doesn't make me a camel. 

And stylised fantasy violence is not equivalent to actual abuse.

Do you consider Mario jumping on Goombas to be animal abuse?



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I wouldn't say that it's blatantly trying to be "sexist", but at the same time, you simply cannot argue how ridiculously, cartoonishly so even, over-sexualized the main character (And other female character in the game) is.



I wouldn't say the sexiness by itself is an entirely accurate critique of Bayonetta. It's the abundance of over-the-top attributes in the game. The sexy shots are just a part of that. I know it's the style of the game, but having ridiculous stuff just happen all over the place is impossible not to notice as an issue. Too much of that is jarring. Artistic specific style or not, you're not going to be able to convince everyone that it doesn't look silly and hard to take seriously.

I believe the sexism debate that's happening is just a red herring and got out of hand from some of the review sites that gave Bayonetta 2 a lower score.



Lube Me Up

LubeMeUpUncleAlfred said:
 Artistic specific style or not, you're not going to be able to convince everyone that it doesn't look silly and hard to take seriously.

That's the thing though, Bayonetta isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's meant to be silly.



curl-6 said:
LubeMeUpUncleAlfred said:
 Artistic specific style or not, you're not going to be able to convince everyone that it doesn't look silly and hard to take seriously.

That's the thing though, Bayonetta isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's meant to be silly.


I woudn't say it's meant to be silly, but over the top in its presentation.  It can definitely come off as silly though.  When I said "Artistic specific" I mean on its own merits and intentions.   But even if one makes that argument to defend Bayonetta, the issue of 'over-the-topness' still exists whether the original intention was to make it like that or not.

Leaving aside what is good or bad (because that is irrelevant), people will see this over-the-top style as an issue of style over substance.

That's not to say that it can't be enjoyed though.

The issue that came up in this case was more of density of the game regarding sex appeal.  Like I said before though, I felt this was taken in the wrong direction from what the real issue is for Bayonetta (and over the top games like Bayonetta).  It's just that the ridiculousness of the sex appeal in this is closer to reality (and thus relatable)  than say using a gaint boot through a space-time warp to stomp your enemies to death. 



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SlayerRondo said:

The reviewer may have been uncomfortable with what the game was trying to do, but I believe that a game reviewers should try to review games based on their quality rather than their themes. If a game can be criticized for being to sexual than can games like Gears of War and The Last of Us have points taken off for being to violent?

Let me know what you think.

Well duh! If I was a person who didn't like bloody and gory games and only liked G-rated content then obviously I would give TLOU and Gears and hundreds of other games a low review score because it was too violent. Themes are totally fair game as part of a review. Being a professional game reviewer would not be a goodf career choice given the overabundance of violent and very violent games. Unless of course I was setting myself up as a "family friendly reviewer".

Personally I have no interest in hypersexual games, so I would probably also mark the game down if I ever played it. I think games like this are fairly immature attempts at giving woman characters control over their sexuality. I don't know enough about the game to credibly comment on whether it's sexist or not. But a game that has heavy doses of sexiness and sexuality, made principally by guys is going to have me assuming guilty until proven innocent. IMO the number of men who can actually portray provocative female sexuality in a non-sexist way is very small in the generality of the entertainment sector and rare in the gaming sector. But it is possible at least in theory.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix