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Forums - General Discussion - Do you think it is normal having firearms?

Grey Acumen on 06 January 2008
tombi123 said:
Your society must be fucked up if you can justify having a gun to protect yourself.

What is safer, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun?

The answer is obvious to me. B. There will be people who have guns illegally but they would be a very small minority. I certainly feel safer living in a country where guns are banned, then I would living in a country where guns are allowed.

I live in England by the way. And guns are banned.

So you tell me, where can a criminal do more damage, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun and can shoot his ass if he tries to use his own gun in an illegal manner, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun, and he never has to worry about getting shot himself at all?

Seems the answer to me is A. The only one that B seems to make things safer for are the criminals, and forgive me, but my sympathy is a little slim in that territory. 

  

you know what, I think I'm seeing a failure of understanding each other's perspectives here. Now I recognize how much of an oddity it is for gun ownership to be legal and widespread. It's never been a "right" for you people, it's not a part of the foundation of your country. To you, the government "lets" you possess firearms at its discretion. Growing up in that type of situation, of course you would feel threatened by people clamoring to be able to own guns. After all, that's not normal, what do they want them for? What are they planning?

Unlike other countries, it is the in the very founding rules of the USA that we have the right to bear arms and use them to protect ourselves with them. That is one of the principle foundations of our freedom, it may be buried deep underground so that you don't even realize that it's holding up everything that has been built on top of it, but it's still there.
To us, being able to own and carry firearms is much the same as being able to have a safety harness on a roller coaster. People carry guns because it is their right, not only because they are afraid or intend to shoot anyone. this is simply how it is.

To carry that roller coaster analogy further, we've had a lot of years early on where we had our safety harnesses, and we needed them, cause we were on a crazy rollercoaster that nearly derailed on numerous occasions and could have thrown us out of the cart at a moments notice. It may have been scary, but that's just part of what life is about.
Right now, we're at a pretty easy stretch of track. People are beginning to complain that the harness is unnecessary. Right now, it may even seem like that. The ride actually has gotten so easy that some people remove the harness completely so that they can relax a bit better. On top of that, the tracks are so steady that we now have some guy who's coming up along side the tracks to remove harnesses from everybody's cars, for their convenience, of course.
Now, maybe you'd be okay with that, but personally, I don't always know exactly who's building these tracks, and I can't see far enough down that I can be certain that there aren't any crazy loop de loops down on the horizon. Now, if we do suddenly hit a bunch of loop de loops, maybe in the middle of the night while we're asleep, are we going to have enough time to get those harnesses back? Where did the guy that took them even go? Are we even completely certain he was working for the same place that built the tracks? What if he died and won't get the harnesses back at all, or what if he never intended to give them back to begin with?
Thank you, but I'll keep my safety harness. It's not that I'm afraid of falling out right now, but that harness is still supposed to be there, and so when someone comes along telling me to remove it, I'm going to object. I'll also do the best I can to convince the people around me to keep their harness on as well.
Maybe we'll never hit another point on the tracks that we need the harnesses for, but doesn't that seem a little naive? We obviously had tracks rough enough that we needed them for before, so no one can guarantee that the issue won't come up again. But on that rare, off chance that we do hit a rough run of tracks, do you really want to be the only one without the safety harness? Do you want to be the only one with restrictions on how quickly you can get that harness, or expect to be told that you don't qualify to get your harness?

It's there for a reason. Rare or not, uncomfortable or not, it's still there for a reason.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

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tombi123 on 06 January 2008
Grey Acumen said:
tombi123 said:
Your society must be fucked up if you can justify having a gun to protect yourself.

What is safer, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun?

The answer is obvious to me. B. There will be people who have guns illegally but they would be a very small minority. I certainly feel safer living in a country where guns are banned, then I would living in a country where guns are allowed.

I live in England by the way. And guns are banned.

So you tell me, where can a criminal do more damage, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun and can shoot his ass if he tries to use his own gun in an illegal manner, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun, and he never has to worry about getting shot himself at all?

Seems the answer to me is A. The only one that B seems to make things safer for are the criminals, and forgive me, but my sympathy is a little slim in that territory. 

  

you know what, I think I'm seeing a failure of understanding each other's perspectives here. Now I recognize how much of an oddity it is for gun ownership to be legal and widespread. It's never been a "right" for you people, it's not a part of the foundation of your country. To you, the government "lets" you possess firearms at its discretion. Growing up in that type of situation, of course you would feel threatened by people clamoring to be able to own guns. After all, that's not normal, what do they want them for? What are they planning?

Unlike other countries, it is the in the very founding rules of the USA that we have the right to bear arms and use them to protect ourselves with them. That is one of the principle foundations of our freedom, it may be buried deep underground so that you don't even realize that it's holding up everything that has been built on top of it, but it's still there.
To us, being able to own and carry firearms is much the same as being able to have a safety harness on a roller coaster. People carry guns because it is their right, not only because they are afraid or intend to shoot anyone. this is simply how it is.

To carry that roller coaster analogy further, we've had a lot of years early on where we had our safety harnesses, and we needed them, cause we were on a crazy rollercoaster that nearly derailed on numerous occasions and could have thrown us out of the cart at a moments notice. It may have been scary, but that's just part of what life is about.
Right now, we're at a pretty easy stretch of track. People are beginning to complain that the harness is unnecessary. Right now, it may even seem like that. The ride actually has gotten so easy that some people remove the harness completely so that they can relax a bit better. On top of that, the tracks are so steady that we now have some guy who's coming up along side the tracks to remove harnesses from everybody's cars, for their convenience, of course.
Now, maybe you'd be okay with that, but personally, I don't always know exactly who's building these tracks, and I can't see far enough down that I can be certain that there aren't any crazy loop de loops down on the horizon. Now, if we do suddenly hit a bunch of loop de loops, maybe in the middle of the night while we're asleep, are we going to have enough time to get those harnesses back? Where did the guy that took them even go? Are we even completely certain he was working for the same place that built the tracks? What if he died and won't get the harnesses back at all, or what if he never intended to give them back to begin with?
Thank you, but I'll keep my safety harness. It's not that I'm afraid of falling out right now, but that harness is still supposed to be there, and so when someone comes along telling me to remove it, I'm going to object. I'll also do the best I can to convince the people around me to keep their harness on as well.
Maybe we'll never hit another point on the tracks that we need the harnesses for, but doesn't that seem a little naive? We obviously had tracks rough enough that we needed them for before, so no one can guarantee that the issue won't come up again. But on that rare, off chance that we do hit a rough run of tracks, do you really want to be the only one without the safety harness? Do you want to be the only one with restrictions on how quickly you can get that harness, or expect to be told that you don't qualify to get your harness?

It's there for a reason. Rare or not, uncomfortable or not, it's still there for a reason.


 A gun is not the same as a safety harness though. Your safety harness cannot kill anyone else on the ride and it cannot kill you. It is there to stop you falling out of the ride, thus saving your life. It can't kill you or anybody else (only very rarely). It is also controlled by a machine or computer, unlike a gun which is in the hands of humans.

I just don't like the idea that anybody can come up to my house with a gun and just start shooting at me.

I am not going to be able to change your views because you believe very 'passionately' for want of a better word, that it is your right to have a gun. But I am fairly sure within 25 years the USA government will have banned firearms or banned capital punishment or possibly both. Just like here in Europe.  



Grey Acumen on 06 January 2008

America won't ban guns until Europe finds a way to make their violent crime rate drop to zero. Though I suppose you might actually believe that would happen, since you got rid of guns.
I do kinda wonder how long it will be before they ban cars over there too. Come on, the less cars on the road, the less likely there will be to have accidents, cause all the public transportation drivers will be trained, right? The only reason you would need to have a car is if you were a criminal trying to get away from the police, who are the only ones that should be allowed to drive cars. Otherwise you wouldn't have any trouble conforming to whatever the government decides are acceptable routes.
I mean heck, it's not like a person in a regular car can stop a person from hitting a pedestrian with their car, so there isn't any reason a law abiding citizen should have a car.

and yeah, I know that I'm not going to be able to change your views either, because you believe very 'passionately' for want of a better word, that life is more important than liberty. I'm fairly sure that in 25 years, Europe is going to be too busy trying to quell the idea that you never have to worry about getting killed if you're a criminal in Europe for America to even consider banning firearms. Even if they do try, it won't be a successful attempt. They tried to abolish alcohol too, and you can see what happened with that.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

Ickalanda on 06 January 2008

I think that it is normal to have fire arms. And laws against them only prevent law abiding citizens from having them, criminals break plenty of laws already so I don't think some minor one such as having a gun is going to stop them.



PC Gamer
Kasz216 on 06 January 2008
joora said:
bulletstopper said:
Europeans are bloodthirsty. I mean, if I was going to have to kill someone breaking into my house, or defending my family, I would much rather stand back and blow them into eternity with a gun. Europeans have to use machetes, knives, clubs, hammers, whatever they can get their greasy little hands on. Bloodthirsty hardcore people.

That's because guns are for wussies. Real men fight with katanas :) ask Japanese :P

 

@Kazsz216: Where have i said that we have higher murder rate with less guns? We have about 15-30 murders yearly commited with firearms, and not much more commited with other objects.

 

Anyway, have your guns, kill eachother, i don't care much. Have it your way, it's your country afterall. I live on Balkans, which is percieved as most turbulent part of Europe, yet it feels ultra-safe compared to USA.


 See the stats above provided.  Croatia has more deaths per capita then the USA. 



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tombi123 on 06 January 2008
Grey Acumen said:
America won't ban guns until Europe finds a way to make their violent crime rate drop to zero. Though I suppose you might actually believe that would happen, since you got rid of guns.
I do kinda wonder how long it will be before they ban cars over there too. Come on, the less cars on the road, the less likely there will be to have accidents, cause all the public transportation drivers will be trained, right? The only reason you would need to have a car is if you were a criminal trying to get away from the police, who are the only ones that should be allowed to drive cars. Otherwise you wouldn't have any trouble conforming to whatever the government decides are acceptable routes.
I mean heck, it's not like a person in a regular car can stop a person from hitting a pedestrian with their car, so there isn't any reason a law abiding citizen should have a car.

and yeah, I know that I'm not going to be able to change your views either, because you believe very 'passionately' for want of a better word, that life is more important than liberty. I'm fairly sure that in 25 years, Europe is going to be too busy trying to quell the idea that you never have to worry about getting killed if you're a criminal in Europe for America to even consider banning firearms. Even if they do try, it won't be a successful attempt. They tried to abolish alcohol too, and you can see what happened with that.

 The impression I get is that you think criminals deserve to die. Hardly any burglary/theft ends in someone being killed here in the UK. I don't know if the same can be said over in America. 

Cars are necessary to everyday life. We use them to get to work/school/shops etc. There primary use is transport. Where as a gun is used for killing primarily. Cars do kill a lot of people. But you can't intentionally kill someone without putting your life at serious risk as well.

Imagine that for some reason you wanted someone dead. What would you use to kill them, a car or a gun? With a gun you can just hide and wait until he/she comes back from work or wherever and just shoot them without them even knowing. How would you do the same in a car? Drive through their living room while they are watching tv?

What I am saying is that guns are far more effective and efficient at killing some one than a car.

Criminals in Europe certainly stand a lower chance of being killed while committing the offense than in USA. But I bet there are less criminals in Europe than there are in USA.

As for alcohol. I don't know what you were trying to say there, but, buying alcohol is legal at the age of 16 in mainland Europe and 18 in the UK. Where as, I believe it is 21 in the USA. 



Kasz216 on 06 January 2008
tombi123 said:
Grey Acumen said:
tombi123 said:
Your society must be fucked up if you can justify having a gun to protect yourself.

What is safer, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun?

The answer is obvious to me. B. There will be people who have guns illegally but they would be a very small minority. I certainly feel safer living in a country where guns are banned, then I would living in a country where guns are allowed.

I live in England by the way. And guns are banned.

So you tell me, where can a criminal do more damage, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun and can shoot his ass if he tries to use his own gun in an illegal manner, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun, and he never has to worry about getting shot himself at all?

Seems the answer to me is A. The only one that B seems to make things safer for are the criminals, and forgive me, but my sympathy is a little slim in that territory.

 

you know what, I think I'm seeing a failure of understanding each other's perspectives here. Now I recognize how much of an oddity it is for gun ownership to be legal and widespread. It's never been a "right" for you people, it's not a part of the foundation of your country. To you, the government "lets" you possess firearms at its discretion. Growing up in that type of situation, of course you would feel threatened by people clamoring to be able to own guns. After all, that's not normal, what do they want them for? What are they planning?

Unlike other countries, it is the in the very founding rules of the USA that we have the right to bear arms and use them to protect ourselves with them. That is one of the principle foundations of our freedom, it may be buried deep underground so that you don't even realize that it's holding up everything that has been built on top of it, but it's still there.
To us, being able to own and carry firearms is much the same as being able to have a safety harness on a roller coaster. People carry guns because it is their right, not only because they are afraid or intend to shoot anyone. this is simply how it is.

To carry that roller coaster analogy further, we've had a lot of years early on where we had our safety harnesses, and we needed them, cause we were on a crazy rollercoaster that nearly derailed on numerous occasions and could have thrown us out of the cart at a moments notice. It may have been scary, but that's just part of what life is about.
Right now, we're at a pretty easy stretch of track. People are beginning to complain that the harness is unnecessary. Right now, it may even seem like that. The ride actually has gotten so easy that some people remove the harness completely so that they can relax a bit better. On top of that, the tracks are so steady that we now have some guy who's coming up along side the tracks to remove harnesses from everybody's cars, for their convenience, of course.
Now, maybe you'd be okay with that, but personally, I don't always know exactly who's building these tracks, and I can't see far enough down that I can be certain that there aren't any crazy loop de loops down on the horizon. Now, if we do suddenly hit a bunch of loop de loops, maybe in the middle of the night while we're asleep, are we going to have enough time to get those harnesses back? Where did the guy that took them even go? Are we even completely certain he was working for the same place that built the tracks? What if he died and won't get the harnesses back at all, or what if he never intended to give them back to begin with?
Thank you, but I'll keep my safety harness. It's not that I'm afraid of falling out right now, but that harness is still supposed to be there, and so when someone comes along telling me to remove it, I'm going to object. I'll also do the best I can to convince the people around me to keep their harness on as well.
Maybe we'll never hit another point on the tracks that we need the harnesses for, but doesn't that seem a little naive? We obviously had tracks rough enough that we needed them for before, so no one can guarantee that the issue won't come up again. But on that rare, off chance that we do hit a rough run of tracks, do you really want to be the only one without the safety harness? Do you want to be the only one with restrictions on how quickly you can get that harness, or expect to be told that you don't qualify to get your harness?

It's there for a reason. Rare or not, uncomfortable or not, it's still there for a reason.


A gun is not the same as a safety harness though. Your safety harness cannot kill anyone else on the ride and it cannot kill you. It is there to stop you falling out of the ride, thus saving your life. It can't kill you or anybody else (only very rarely). It is also controlled by a machine or computer, unlike a gun which is in the hands of humans.

I just don't like the idea that anybody can come up to my house with a gun and just start shooting at me.

I am not going to be able to change your views because you believe very 'passionately' for want of a better word, that it is your right to have a gun. But I am fairly sure within 25 years the USA government will have banned firearms or banned capital punishment or possibly both. Just like here in Europe.


 Anyone can come up to your house and start shooting at you now.  Just like they could in the US most crimes in the US arn't committed with legal guns.  They are committed with Illegal guns.  If they ban legal guns the illegal guns will still be around.  



tombi123 on 06 January 2008
Kasz216 said:
joora said:
bulletstopper said:
Europeans are bloodthirsty. I mean, if I was going to have to kill someone breaking into my house, or defending my family, I would much rather stand back and blow them into eternity with a gun. Europeans have to use machetes, knives, clubs, hammers, whatever they can get their greasy little hands on. Bloodthirsty hardcore people.

That's because guns are for wussies. Real men fight with katanas :) ask Japanese :P

 

@Kazsz216: Where have i said that we have higher murder rate with less guns? We have about 15-30 murders yearly commited with firearms, and not much more commited with other objects.

 

Anyway, have your guns, kill eachother, i don't care much. Have it your way, it's your country afterall. I live on Balkans, which is percieved as most turbulent part of Europe, yet it feels ultra-safe compared to USA.


 See the stats above provided.  Croatia has more deaths per capita then the USA. 


 USA is a far more developed country than Croatia (not having a go at Croatia). Therefore it should be more civilized. I would be shocked if the USA had more deaths per capita than Croatia. I better comparison is probably between the USA and the UK. I would be very surprised if the UK had more deaths per capita than the USA.



tombi123 on 06 January 2008
Kasz216 said:
tombi123 said:
Grey Acumen said:
tombi123 said:
Your society must be fucked up if you can justify having a gun to protect yourself.

What is safer, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun?

The answer is obvious to me. B. There will be people who have guns illegally but they would be a very small minority. I certainly feel safer living in a country where guns are banned, then I would living in a country where guns are allowed.

I live in England by the way. And guns are banned.

So you tell me, where can a criminal do more damage, A) A country (state, community) where everyone has a gun and can shoot his ass if he tries to use his own gun in an illegal manner, or B) a country (state,community) where no one is allowed a gun, and he never has to worry about getting shot himself at all?

Seems the answer to me is A. The only one that B seems to make things safer for are the criminals, and forgive me, but my sympathy is a little slim in that territory.

 

you know what, I think I'm seeing a failure of understanding each other's perspectives here. Now I recognize how much of an oddity it is for gun ownership to be legal and widespread. It's never been a "right" for you people, it's not a part of the foundation of your country. To you, the government "lets" you possess firearms at its discretion. Growing up in that type of situation, of course you would feel threatened by people clamoring to be able to own guns. After all, that's not normal, what do they want them for? What are they planning?

Unlike other countries, it is the in the very founding rules of the USA that we have the right to bear arms and use them to protect ourselves with them. That is one of the principle foundations of our freedom, it may be buried deep underground so that you don't even realize that it's holding up everything that has been built on top of it, but it's still there.
To us, being able to own and carry firearms is much the same as being able to have a safety harness on a roller coaster. People carry guns because it is their right, not only because they are afraid or intend to shoot anyone. this is simply how it is.

To carry that roller coaster analogy further, we've had a lot of years early on where we had our safety harnesses, and we needed them, cause we were on a crazy rollercoaster that nearly derailed on numerous occasions and could have thrown us out of the cart at a moments notice. It may have been scary, but that's just part of what life is about.
Right now, we're at a pretty easy stretch of track. People are beginning to complain that the harness is unnecessary. Right now, it may even seem like that. The ride actually has gotten so easy that some people remove the harness completely so that they can relax a bit better. On top of that, the tracks are so steady that we now have some guy who's coming up along side the tracks to remove harnesses from everybody's cars, for their convenience, of course.
Now, maybe you'd be okay with that, but personally, I don't always know exactly who's building these tracks, and I can't see far enough down that I can be certain that there aren't any crazy loop de loops down on the horizon. Now, if we do suddenly hit a bunch of loop de loops, maybe in the middle of the night while we're asleep, are we going to have enough time to get those harnesses back? Where did the guy that took them even go? Are we even completely certain he was working for the same place that built the tracks? What if he died and won't get the harnesses back at all, or what if he never intended to give them back to begin with?
Thank you, but I'll keep my safety harness. It's not that I'm afraid of falling out right now, but that harness is still supposed to be there, and so when someone comes along telling me to remove it, I'm going to object. I'll also do the best I can to convince the people around me to keep their harness on as well.
Maybe we'll never hit another point on the tracks that we need the harnesses for, but doesn't that seem a little naive? We obviously had tracks rough enough that we needed them for before, so no one can guarantee that the issue won't come up again. But on that rare, off chance that we do hit a rough run of tracks, do you really want to be the only one without the safety harness? Do you want to be the only one with restrictions on how quickly you can get that harness, or expect to be told that you don't qualify to get your harness?

It's there for a reason. Rare or not, uncomfortable or not, it's still there for a reason.


A gun is not the same as a safety harness though. Your safety harness cannot kill anyone else on the ride and it cannot kill you. It is there to stop you falling out of the ride, thus saving your life. It can't kill you or anybody else (only very rarely). It is also controlled by a machine or computer, unlike a gun which is in the hands of humans.

I just don't like the idea that anybody can come up to my house with a gun and just start shooting at me.

I am not going to be able to change your views because you believe very 'passionately' for want of a better word, that it is your right to have a gun. But I am fairly sure within 25 years the USA government will have banned firearms or banned capital punishment or possibly both. Just like here in Europe.


 Anyone can come up to your house and start shooting at you now.  Just like they could in the US most crimes in the US arn't committed with legal guns.  They are committed with Illegal guns.  If they ban legal guns the illegal guns will still be around.  


 Correct. Although my suspicions are it is far more easy to get your hands on an illegal gun in USA then it is here in the UK.

 



tombi123 on 06 January 2008
tombi123 said:
Kasz216 said:
joora said:
bulletstopper said:
Europeans are bloodthirsty. I mean, if I was going to have to kill someone breaking into my house, or defending my family, I would much rather stand back and blow them into eternity with a gun. Europeans have to use machetes, knives, clubs, hammers, whatever they can get their greasy little hands on. Bloodthirsty hardcore people.

That's because guns are for wussies. Real men fight with katanas :) ask Japanese :P

 

@Kazsz216: Where have i said that we have higher murder rate with less guns? We have about 15-30 murders yearly commited with firearms, and not much more commited with other objects.

 

Anyway, have your guns, kill eachother, i don't care much. Have it your way, it's your country afterall. I live on Balkans, which is percieved as most turbulent part of Europe, yet it feels ultra-safe compared to USA.


 See the stats above provided.  Croatia has more deaths per capita then the USA. 


 USA is a far more developed country than Croatia (not having a go at Croatia). Therefore it should be more civilized. I would be shocked if the USA had more deaths per capita than Croatia. I better comparison is probably between the USA and the UK. I would be very surprised if the UK had more deaths per capita than the USA.


Wait a sec, is this deaths per capita or murders per capita? Of course the USA would have lower death per capita than Croatia. But maybe not murder per capita.