Wait so the wiimote is revolutionary because you can use it as a light gun or steering wheel...Uhuh or how about just use a light gun or steering wheel? Point and click games are a revolution because they never existed on the PC, or that the PS3 or 360 couldn't very, very easily do them? How about they were ebbed out of main gaming because they were archaic?
Wii gestures mess up sport games as it's just a gesture needed, not a full motion. Oh and the graphics are so abysmal how could you be immersed in a game that's trying to recreate reality, against brain dead AI?
Fitness games are a totally new thing, but guess what, they are a fad as the gym would be better. Plus snowboard games etc have all been done in arcades before. The wii is just a versitile arcade machine - it's done nothing new, just mashing exisiting arcade input devices (light guns, steering wheel etc) into one device.

So the pointer never goes off screen with wii FPS'? And how about turning, strafing etc, not to mention, how are all those buttons working out for the wii pad? You know, change grenade, use grenade, change weapon, crouch, jump, melee, sprint etc.
Steering wheels can be bought for either the 360 or PS3 so what's your point? Not to mention, how come it's known that the GC pad is better for Mario Kart than the wii mote.  And yeah, simulation is good with just god awful graphics, sure....Less buttons is irrelevant HOW?!?! Waggle to do something ISNT IMMERSIVE, it's just time consuming. Oh and the wii buttons are also a pain to use if you use the pointer, so dont act as if it has 7 always usable buttons, because it doesn't.

Please show me wii games which have raised the level of expectation of gamers from that genre.

We are still talking consoles here and not pc´s so dont use that argument when all else fails.

Wii has 7 buttons that are used commonly in gaming and all that strafing stuff has been done if you bothered playing a wii game like metroid.

Now you are moving goalposts again but we knew you would by now.

Now how about you show some proof of all your claims before we go further?

You wanted answers you got them, I even proved with links what the base latency of the wiimote is and you haven shown anything to proove your claims.

Still waiting for a relevant survey that most wii´s are collecting dust

Also show us how hdconsoles have progressed gaming and no better graphics is not a progression of gaming its a natural evolution from gen to gen nd all consoles this gen have progressed with graphical ability in their machine (HD more then WIi but its still a progress from last gen) so can you show any progression made by hd consoles outside of graphics?

I'm not sure what version of OOT you played but in every version I've completed (N64, GC, VC & even Master Quest) there's no horseback combat.  You can shoot arrows in 1st person (which takes away any control over Epona), but that's hardly the same thing, and it's used pretty much just for ghost hunting and a shooting gallery, not combat.  In TP you have swords, arrows (both 1st person and 3rd person lock-on), boomerang, hookshot, etc, and the game makes you actually use them effectively (even in the final boss battle).  More, in TP you can actually ride different animals too (not just Epona), with differing handling and even some attacks for each.

Progression is pretty linear (hello, it's Zelda), but the world design itself is literally a circle, with tons of shortcuts and paths connecting through parts.  This isn't FFXIII.

Graphics look pretty decent for PS2/GC/Xbox era stuff.  The textures are kinda rough though, it's too bad they didn't actually make use of Wii's expanded spec for anything.  Lighting's good though, modeling is decent, draw distance is fantastic.

Uh, compared to OOT.  Y'know, what we were talking about.  Stop moving the goalposts and stay on topic.

The twilight beasts you're supposed to fight in wolf form, and they're basically a simple puzzle.  I'm talking actual combat, which has various moves, techniques, counters, finishers, etc.  Of course, combat gets more complex the further you get in the game, you should try playing more than the first fourth of it.

lol.  Again, we were talking about OOT.  Watch those goalposts go!

Why should we compare it to Oblivion exactly?  I mean, they're completely different games, in different genres, and lean towards almost entirely opposite design philosophies?  It's like comparing Rachet & Clank to Halo.

Zelda excels chiefly in what it's designed to: puzzles.  That's what the game's really crafted around, in almost every aspect (overworld, sidequests, dungeons, subweapons/items, bosses, etc), the adventure/exploration motif is really just layered on top.   When you get down to it, Zelda really has more in common with classic PC adventure titles than an open world PC RPG like Oblivion.

Wow, I'll sum it up for both of you here:
1) Find another word instead of goalposts.

2) I am going to mention PC games because I am talking about GAMING. You cannot claim a game has been revolutionary for a genre unless you look at the entire genre, not a specific little bit. Doing that you could claim any game is revolutionary.
2ii)Therefore point and click adventures are not revolutionary, and i'm going to compare Zelda to the entire RPG game catalogue, not just itself. If you don't you could claim a popularly perceived bad game e.g. Haze, is good if you just compare it a cherry picked game e.g. Doom.
2iii) Zelda = RPG. Oblivion = RPG. Ratchet and Clank = platformer. Halo = FPS. Well done on misclassifying those games. And Oblivion is on the 360.

3) You cannot use the all the wii buttons effectively at once. Try using 1 and 2 when the pad is being used as a pointer or A when you are holding the pad sidewise etc.

4) My point has been that real gamers are not into the wii (which is going to effect future Nintendo console sales if it just goes for an improved wii) as it offers no revolutionary games or definitive games for the genres offered. I point this out then you both moan that i'm "moving goalposts" as i'm comparing wii games to games on other platforms. Well duh, that's the point, looking at the wii games in contrast to the consoles which are perceived to be for the "real" gamers.
4ii)All you have come up with is that the wii games are better than their predecessors, but not better than other games on the market, and that the wii excels in arcade novelties such as light guns and steering wheels.


Why would a hardcore gamer buy a wii? What genre defying games are on the wii?

Zelda is not an rpg and goes to show how much shit you are talking and how little you know about gaming:

Pc hs nothing to do with what wii has done for consoles absolutly nothing. If we are counting pc then none of the hdconsoles have done anything for gaming that hasnt been done on pc before, if you were a real gamer you would know that but as graphics whore you wouldnt.

Its weak of you to go into pc argument when we are talking about consoles and proof you got nothing else to come up with and also you are avoiding to show proof of your claims.

dont avoid proving your claims and show us some links to support them.

Show proof of 180ms lag. Allready failed at this and only proving that you talk out of your ass.

Show me proof that hardcore gamers are not buying the wii, there are lots of proof otherwise just on this site and users here and by me posting.

Show proof that most wii´s are collecting dust

You are not getting of that easy we have provided you with answers and examples and just because you dont agree doesnt mean that they are not valid.

So show some proof instead of whinning like a butthurt little kid.

1) Find another tactic instead of moving the goalposts.  Try arguing the actual topic for a change.

2) The discussion was about progression from OOT to TP, versus KZ1 to KZ2 actually.  Since you've continually failed to even bring up the latter, and with the former decided to sidestep any relevant discussion with talking about Oblivion (wtf?) out of the blue, I'm going to have to assume you don't actually have anything to contribute and acknowledge TP's rather obvious generational progression in this case.

Also, Zelda's NOT an RPG, and certainly not an open world RPG.  In truth it and the Elder Scrolls games do have about as much in common as R&C and Halo (which could both be distilled down to "shooters").  I'm not the cherrypicker here, you are with this sudden out of context Oblivion fixation.

3) A's pretty easy to press when the pad's sideways honestly.  Is your thumb broken?

4) 42% of PS3 owners have a Wii.  42% of 360 owners have a Wii.  72% of Wii owners have or had a PS2.  Can you define "real gamer" for me?  Could you also name the definitive 3D platformer this gen for me? ;)

well once again you have missed the point but oh well, first I would like to point out that Morrowind PC does infact have a slider for view distance and AI distance in the options (in game not the launcher) shows how much you know about it. Second no Evolution doesn't doesn't automatically mean better games like Resistance AVP etc, they are not exactly the same as their predecessors and many people I know would say they changed for the worst. That is evolution a "Revolution" is when something changes in a drastic way think zelda going from Duel joystick gamepad to Wii motion controls (whether you think it is a better or worse control method is eralivent) that drastically changed how the game was played.

As for Scribblenauts I was using it as an example just like you use Oblivion MGS4 etc (I sure as hell didn't bring them up) and yes developers made MGS4 a great game not the hardware it was on I thought we were arguing about whether the Wii was capable of revolutionary games, Games that change the way people look at the genre. I would argue that a lot of Wii games did that note I am not arguing they were better games for people like you who think that there games are the only real games and nothing else matters.

P.S. If you want we can try arguing it from the opposite point of view maybe it will allow us to gain a new perspective lol

For Nintendo, "only HD" is not enough. The new Nintendo's console will be "new".

And guess what none of you guys did? Answer my question, that's what.
So without digressing please name me a game on the wii which is seen as the benchmark for that genre across all platforms.

PS. Morrowinds draw distance on PC was still awful, Zelda is an RPG as you are role playing as another character, plus does Oblivion not have action, adventure/battle gameplay, and exploration as well as dungeons etc? It's like saying you can't compare Killzone and Halo as one has aliens and vehicles, the other does not, which of course is a damn stupid point. And to claim the HD consoles have done nothing that hasn't been done on PC is rubbish as Resistance 2 had a new weapon selection system, roamin way points, new co-op play etc, Killzone 2 introduced changing game types mid-battle, class selection with primary and secondary perks that could be mixed etc. Gears of War made the cover-system shooter work, Uncharted is the most film-like games can get for now, Heavy Rain is great and immersive storytelling unlike any game before it and so on. Plus both consoles, but more the PS3, introduced media hubs to lounges, with easy PC streaming, not to mention BLURAY with the PS3. Saying the consoles did nothing shows how little you know of what you talk about.

Why are you avoiding to prove your claims?

We have given you links and eamples to all your questions you had before this one now its your turn to provide us with links to all your claims.

in case you forgot:

dont avoid proving your claims and show us some links to support them.

Show proof of 180ms lag. Allready failed at this and only proving that you talk out of your ass.

Show me proof that hardcore gamers are not buying the wii, there are lots of proof otherwise just on this site and users here and by me posting.

Show proof that most wii´s are collecting dust

You are not getting of that easy we have provided you with answers and examples and just because you dont agree doesnt mean that they are not valid.

So show some proof instead of whinning like a butthurt little kid.

When you have done this we can continue the discussion.