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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - What Natal Really Is!

heruamon on 24 November 2009

This is the same issue with launching a updated 360 with more ram or perhaps more processing power....developers will ALWAYS defer to the higher end...and it will alienate gamers, unless you can somehow set it up to auto adjust. Here's the thing, if you tell gamers...you don't need Natal, but you can get it for cheap, and boost your console performance, you'll probably get tons of people to buy in...especially if it's under $100. I do think M$ is looking at Natal as a mid-life refresh for the 360...Natal launchs at the 5 year point....hmmmm...



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

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Joryn on 24 November 2009
selnor said:


Hmmm. a few points not just to you but to the person claiming to be a student of computer engineering ( the 1 millionth on the net ). There is a CPU and Ram in Natal. M$ talk about ADVANCED streaming for a reason. That advanced streaming is not available in todays USB's on PC's or any other configuration. M$ explicitly designed the 360 with that in mind. Is this what Natal is designed for? Who knows. Is it possible sure.

Also, it doesn't have to even be good enough to enhance the games that much. Remember the N64? Expansion pak that enhanced the capable resolution? Natal could simply be used to enhance all future 360 games to 1080p 60 FPs and nothing else. Instantly the games would become so crisp. That is a definate possibility, after all I refuse to believe that M$ designed a much faster USB with a different set of rules for no reason. And no it wouldnt work on PS3, as it doesnt have M$ advanced streaming USB for a start and isnt registered on the motherboard directly to the ram, CPU and GPU.  

Uggh...Ok let's see here

The N64 RAM expansion pack was built into the unit to start with and all that it changed was what some games could do with it.  It didn't suddenly make every N64 game look amazing, but it did make some games possible on the N64.  This also means that it was using a dedicated memory bus that already existed in the console and Not an external serial bus.  Ask anyone in hardware development and they'll tell you that for something like CPU to CPU interaction you don't use Serial. 

Natal may a whole other xbox built into it but it will still be limited by the interface to the console proper.  It's just not technically possible for there to be more than 480 megabits/s of data (max theoretical speed of USB 2.0) transmitted to the Xbox from Natal.  That's plenty for images/video/and control data but not enough to offload graphical performance or cpu.  Also please find the me reference you keep claiming for this "advanced speed" USB that M$ is supposedly using on the Xbox.  I've looked through the user manuals I could find and saw nothing in reference.

Natal will be an interesting user interface, but it will not make any changes beyond interface to any existing games. 



Joryn on 24 November 2009
Homeroids said:
Again, strategically speaking, I reckon Sony and MS seriously missed the boat here. Can't see either being a raging success. You don't go splitting your userbase down the middle like that. I think both will fail from a user base penetration point of view. But I hope I am wrong.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one.  This kind of thing has never really panned out for a console.  I suspect that they are both just treating these things as glorified tech demos for the next full interation of hardware.  Doesn't mean I won't go pick up a wand when it comes out though lol



Homeroids on 24 November 2009
Joryn said:
selnor said:


Hmmm. a few points not just to you but to the person claiming to be a student of computer engineering ( the 1 millionth on the net ). There is a CPU and Ram in Natal. M$ talk about ADVANCED streaming for a reason. That advanced streaming is not available in todays USB's on PC's or any other configuration. M$ explicitly designed the 360 with that in mind. Is this what Natal is designed for? Who knows. Is it possible sure.

Also, it doesn't have to even be good enough to enhance the games that much. Remember the N64? Expansion pak that enhanced the capable resolution? Natal could simply be used to enhance all future 360 games to 1080p 60 FPs and nothing else. Instantly the games would become so crisp. That is a definate possibility, after all I refuse to believe that M$ designed a much faster USB with a different set of rules for no reason. And no it wouldnt work on PS3, as it doesnt have M$ advanced streaming USB for a start and isnt registered on the motherboard directly to the ram, CPU and GPU.  

Uggh...Ok let's see here

The N64 RAM expansion pack was built into the unit to start with and all that it changed was what some games could do with it.  It didn't suddenly make every N64 game look amazing, but it did make some games possible on the N64.  This also means that it was using a dedicated memory bus that already existed in the console and Not an external serial bus.  Ask anyone in hardware development and they'll tell you that for something like CPU to CPU interaction you don't use Serial. 

Natal may a whole other xbox built into it but it will still be limited by the interface to the console proper.  It's just not technically possible for there to be more than 480 megabits/s of data (max theoretical speed of USB 2.0) transmitted to the Xbox from Natal.  That's plenty for images/video/and control data but not enough to offload graphical performance or cpu.  Also please find the me reference you keep claiming for this "advanced speed" USB that M$ is supposedly using on the Xbox.  I've looked through the user manuals I could find and saw nothing in reference.

Natal will be an interesting user interface, but it will not make any changes beyond interface to any existing games. 

I agree :)

Back to "splitting yr userbase...

This is hardly the same level of change in the general hardware spec as what NATAL or the Wand is. Natal and the Wand are bigger paradigm shifts.

Ok, so let's do see here, looking at history. Sega CD add-on. Not a good example of how to keep all your user base happy. It split the system down the middle. Was the start of where Sega went real bad.

 

Consoles are not PC's. They don't evolve in their product cycles. At least not a lot. Adding Natal or the Wand is a bit more than "evolution". In fact, thanks to Nintendo, I have a rather presuasive argument that just came to mind. The code name for the Wii was the Nintendo Revolution. It worked for Nintendo because motion controls launched with the new platform. MS and Sony - don't try and enforce a "revolution" onto gamers using an existing platform.

I guess Sony's less revolutionary design for motion, might be safer, as far as the existing paltform goes.

If I was MS, I would launch the 720 with Natal, or just call it a day for the 360 and repackage as a new platform. By the time Natal comes out it will 5 years already. I just don't agree with how Sony and MS are trying to split their User base(s).



Icyedge on 25 November 2009
selnor said:
dbot said:
I guess Microsoft has invented a CPU that doesn't generate heat, or will Natal have a cooling system? Will Natal have a power brick?

Will game developers create games that require resources on an optional accessory? Sorry, you can't play Gears of War 3 because you don't have Natal.

The original post could have used a few links to resources that confirm some of these claims. It seems as though this entire post was based on rumors.


We know M$ are targetting it with as much hype and resource for advertising as a new console launch. So I see this:

There will be game boxes of 2 types. The standard we have now, and a new type maybe with Natal across the top of the box? Or whatever the actual name is when released. Whatever, I see 2 types of boxing.

Yes to your question about developers. Because it will be clear that some games are Natal and some aren't. M$ are banking on Natal to be a success. Personally I believe it has already had more hype than when 360 was announced. I think everyone will have Natal, and developing wont be an issue when 360+ Natal is selling 5-600,000/ week after release.

Yes I fully believe this scenario is going to happen. Also believe it will be viewed as the upgrade to Wii by casuals. Remeber they wont care as long as it simplifies controls and looks better on there new HDTV's they have.

 

Theres something your forgetting, you need a controller to play games for a couple of hours. Only casual player would want what Natal is offering and they will probably stick with their Wii because casual player will not want to invest another 400$ to get a 360, natal and a natal game. The sell wil be average at best.



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dsister44 on 25 November 2009
Icyedge said:

 

Theres something your forgetting, you need a controller to play games for a couple of hours. Only casual player would want what Natal is offering and they will probably stick with their Wii because casual player will not want to invest another 400$ to get a 360, natal and a natal game. The sell wil be average at best.

Link?



Icyedge on 25 November 2009
dsister44 said:
Icyedge said:

 

Theres something your forgetting, you need a controller to play games for a couple of hours. Only casual player would want what Natal is offering and they will probably stick with their Wii because casual player will not want to invest another 400$ to get a 360, natal and a natal game. The sell wil be average at best.

Link?

LOL, come on, im a gamer and know lots of gamer. We dont play games to move all around. When it is release im giving you the challenge to play the soccer game for 5 hours in a row, have fun!!!



dsister44 on 25 November 2009
Icyedge said:
dsister44 said:
Icyedge said:

 

Theres something your forgetting, you need a controller to play games for a couple of hours. Only casual player would want what Natal is offering and they will probably stick with their Wii because casual player will not want to invest another 400$ to get a 360, natal and a natal game. The sell wil be average at best.

Link?

LOL, come on, im a gamer and know lots of gamer. We dont play games to move all around. When it is release im giving you the challenge to play the soccer game for 5 hours in a row, have fun!!!

You don't need to have a controller to play for hours. The games that we saw from e3 were party games. Those are not meant to be played for hours. Microsoft will have fun games that will make you want to play for hours 



heruamon on 25 November 2009
dsister44 said:
Icyedge said:
dsister44 said:
Icyedge said:

 

Theres something your forgetting, you need a controller to play games for a couple of hours. Only casual player would want what Natal is offering and they will probably stick with their Wii because casual player will not want to invest another 400$ to get a 360, natal and a natal game. The sell wil be average at best.

Link?

LOL, come on, im a gamer and know lots of gamer. We dont play games to move all around. When it is release im giving you the challenge to play the soccer game for 5 hours in a row, have fun!!!

You don't need to have a controller to play for hours. The games that we saw from e3 were party games. Those are not meant to be played for hours. Microsoft will have fun games that will make you want to play for hours 

It's amazing how SOOOO many people "know" what the implementation of NATAL is going to be...lol.  What we've seen is tons of developers stating that they are actively working on NATAL projects.  So as far as variety, I think you're spot on that people should assume they know how this thing is going to play out.



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

exit52000 on 25 November 2009

Well you seem to be suggesting that because of the added power the xbox will be more powerful than the PS3.  Which as theres a new processor involved would obviously be the reason why.  Its like the processor that got added to the SNES lol.

Also if you looked at when they were showing Natal the Xbox had this huge attachment on top where the hard drive goes.  If that was needed I dont think my xbox would fit under my TV.