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Forums - Gaming Discussion - It is time for Shigeru Miyamoto to retire (Malstrom)

Erik Aston said:
Nintendo has been recycling Mario, Zelda and Metroid for 20 years. They didn't risk a holiday season on a UGC game until 2008.

So while Nintendo has a problem in that they have not created new character-centric games on the level of Mario or Zelda in a long, long time, and possibly have an additional problem that they are now about 2 years out from creating a successful new mega-franchise (like Brain Age, Nintendogs, Wii Sports or Wii Fit, which launched in Japan for Xmas 07), the idea that Nintendo is continuing on the path laid out by Wii Music and Animal Crossing Wii doesn't have much support, as far as I can see.

The big Nintendo games showing their strategy now are Sports Resort, Fit Plus, NSMBW, Galaxy 2, Zelda Wii, Vitality Sensor, Zelda Spirit Tracks, Pokemon HG/SS, Mario and Sonic 2, etc. Side projects and experiments are Flipnote Studio, Mario and DK, and Art Style series.

I may be reading too much into his posts, but I believe Malstrom's concern is that the experiments may end up becoming the main attraction in the future. The support for this would be that 1) Nintendo's shown an interest in pursuing UGC as their flagship efffort (Holiday 2008), 2) Nintendo's continuing several experiments with UGC even after that debacle (Flipnote Studio, Mario vs. DK, Wii Music 2 (The Artstyle games aren't UGC, as far as I can tell)), 3) You rarely conduct experiments unless you're interested in expanding those concepts in the future (see Gamecube and GBA peripherals), and 4) Nintendo, and Miyamoto in particular, are still openly talking about embracing UGC, inspite of Holiday 2008 (see this interview, for starters).

While I don't completely buy into Malstrom's alarmism at this point, I do have to note that nearly every title you've identified as being key to Nintendo's current efforts are sequels (Fit Plus, Resort, Galaxy 2, Zelda Wii, etc. The Vitality Sensor is a clear exception and, while NSMB was only four years ago, I consider a console 2D Mario to be fresh enough to not call it a sequel). Alarmingly, most of the Wii titles you've listed already have a game on the Wii. To me, this implies a stall tactic: Nintendo's not sure where to go next, so they're throwing the familiar out there to buy some time. I thought, until this interview, that this meant they were abandoning their UGC approach, hence the need for filler titles, but this interview kind of makes it sound like they're willing to stick with the strategy while only mixing up the tactics.



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liquidninja said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
liquidninja, where do you and Malstrom get the batshitcrazy idea that Nintendo is moving away from creating new content, and moving towards selling content-creating tools instead of games?

There is a gigantic logical leap between Wii Music and a possible sequel.... and the other 8290357109857 games and projects Nintendo is working on, suddenly disappearing. Where are you guys getting this crazy idea?

Do you think Sony's doing the same thing? They have LittleBigPlanet and now ModNation Racers. Does that mean they're not getting Gran Turismo anymore?

1) They mostly keep reusing ideas from past Mario, Zelda and Metroid games in their sequels.

2) There is a a lot of Mario spin-off being put out by Nintendo.

3) They think User Generated Content should be the primary focus of their new games.

4) I don't think it's so crazy to think they are moving away from creating new content.

I numbered your 4 sentences and spread them apart a bit to make this easier.

1) Mario Galaxy was nothing like Sunshine or Mario 64 and is considered by many to be the most innovative 3-D platformer.  Metroid: Other M is completely new, with new gameplay, new point of view, new pacing and action, new characters, and new story.  You're right about Twilight Princess, but Miyamoto has said that was the last traditional Zelda and he's doing something crazy different next.  That game was all fanservice for Ocarina fans (it's Ocarina's only true sequel taking place in the same exact Hyrule), a sweet farewell to that era of Zelda games.  But it's the only Zelda where you TURN INTO A WOLF.  More people say that Twilight Princess was ripping off Okami than say it's a stale repeat of Wind Waker.

2) Mario IS a spin-off, and always has been.  He came from Donkey Kong.  Then he was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr.  Then suddenly he was a plumber and he had a brother and he fought monsters in your plumbing.  Then he was part of a Wrecking Crew.  Then he and his bro were "super" and ate mushrooms that made them bigger as they battled through dungeons to save a princess.  Those games were all spin-offs, and that was all on the NES.  Mario tried everything before he found his true calling in life.  But he kept trying other things.  Even back on the SNES you had Super Mario Kart and Super Mario RPG.  This is nothing new and has nothing to do with User Generated Content or Nintendo failing or Miyamoto retiring.

3) Prove it.  This is the big logical jump I'm not seeing any evidence for anywhere.  Name me any Nintendo games you can think of where you can actually say "User Generated Content is the primary focus."

4) Here is some new content from Nintendo: Nintendogs, Brain Age, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Rhythm Heaven, Excitebots.  And outside of America there's Disaster and Captain Rainbow.  They're working on new franchises, creating entirely new genres, and even with their old franchises they're trying many new things.  Maybe User Generated Content will be one of their several directions.  Why would it be the only one, or even a major one?



The Ghost of RubangB said:

I numbered your 4 sentences and spread them apart a bit to make this easier.

1) Mario Galaxy was nothing like Sunshine or Mario 64 and is considered by many to be the most innovative 3-D platformer.

I have to seriously question this sentence. More innovative than Mario 64, i.e. the game that created the 3D-platformer? You're stretching it.

Metroid: Other M is completely new, with new gameplay, new point of view, new pacing and action, new characters, and new story. 

Aside from the new story part, do we actually know any of this for sure? We've gotten a highly-ambiguous trailer, an interview talking about Samus' maternal instincts, and, as far as I know, nothing else on the subject. I think this is a bit premature.

You're right about Twilight Princess, but Miyamoto has said that was the last traditional Zelda and he's doing something crazy different next. 

That was actually made up by the internet. He's recently said that the next Zelda won't be that different.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/07/02/miyamoto-next-zelda-on-the-wii-not-radically-different/

The Ghost of RubangB said:

More people say that Twilight Princess was ripping off Okami than say it's a stale repeat of Wind Waker.

 Considering the development cycles, those people always make me laugh.

For the record, I agree with the rest of your post.

 



noname2200 said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

I numbered your 4 sentences and spread them apart a bit to make this easier.

1) Mario Galaxy was nothing like Sunshine or Mario 64 and is considered by many to be the most innovative 3-D platformer.

I have to seriously question this sentence. More innovative than Mario 64, i.e. the game that created the 3D-platformer? You're stretching it.

Metroid: Other M is completely new, with new gameplay, new point of view, new pacing and action, new characters, and new story. 

Aside from the new story part, do we actually know any of this for sure? We've gotten a highly-ambiguous trailer, an interview talking about Samus' maternal instincts, and, as far as I know, nothing else on the subject. I think this is a bit premature.

You're right about Twilight Princess, but Miyamoto has said that was the last traditional Zelda and he's doing something crazy different next. 

That was actually made up by the internet. He's recently said that the next Zelda won't be that different.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/07/02/miyamoto-next-zelda-on-the-wii-not-radically-different/

The Ghost of RubangB said:

More people say that Twilight Princess was ripping off Okami than say it's a stale repeat of Wind Waker.

 Considering the development cycles, those people always make me laugh.

For the record, I agree with the rest of your post.

 

Metroid: I thought we knew the new Metroid would have 3rd person and 2-D parts, and it seems much faster, especially since Team Ninja doesn't make games about really slow atmospheric exploration.

Mario: yeah, I meant most innovative 3-D platformer SINCE Mario 64 defined it.

Zelda: whoa, news to me.  ::clicks link::



The Ghost of RubangB said:

I numbered your 4 sentences and spread them apart a bit to make this easier.

1) Mario Galaxy was nothing like Sunshine or Mario 64 and is considered by many to be the most innovative 3-D platformer.  Metroid: Other M is completely new, with new gameplay, new point of view, new pacing and action, new characters, and new story.  You're right about Twilight Princess, but Miyamoto has said that was the last traditional Zelda and he's doing something crazy different next.  That game was all fanservice for Ocarina fans (it's Ocarina's only true sequel taking place in the same exact Hyrule), a sweet farewell to that era of Zelda games.  But it's the only Zelda where you TURN INTO A WOLF.  More people say that Twilight Princess was ripping off Okami than say it's a stale repeat of Wind Waker.

2) Mario IS a spin-off, and always has been.  He came from Donkey Kong.  Then he was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr.  Then suddenly he was a plumber and he had a brother and he fought monsters in your plumbing.  Then he was part of a Wrecking Crew.  Then he and his bro were "super" and ate mushrooms that made them bigger as they battled through dungeons to save a princess.  Those games were all spin-offs, and that was all on the NES.  Mario tried everything before he found his true calling in life.  But he kept trying other things.  Even back on the SNES you had Super Mario Kart and Super Mario RPG.  This is nothing new and has nothing to do with User Generated Content or Nintendo failing or Miyamoto retiring.

3) Prove it.  This is the big logical jump I'm not seeing any evidence for anywhere.  Name me any Nintendo games you can think of where you can actually say "User Generated Content is the primary focus."

4) Here is some new content from Nintendo: Nintendogs, Brain Age, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Rhythm Heaven, Excitebots.  And outside of America there's Disaster and Captain Rainbow.  They're working on new franchises, creating entirely new genres, and even with their old franchises they're trying many new things.  Maybe User Generated Content will be one of their several directions.  Why would it be the only one, or even a major one?

By ideas I wasn't talking about gameplay I was talking about levels, enemy's, item's, story etc. They keep fishing stuff from old Mario games. I think they do the same things with Zelda and Metroid.

Everything including Donkey Kong is considered part of the Mario Universe. Paper Mario, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Mario Super Sluggers, Mario Strikers, Mario and Luigi (the RPG series), Wario Land, Yoshi's Island. From what I hear Wii Sports was originally gonna use Mario characters, also.

When thinking of games where UGC is the primary focus Flipnote Studio, Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again and Wii Music come to mind.

Yes they are making new content still but they still seem to be putting more focus in either using existing content and now it seems like they have this idea of their users creating all the content.



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Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again is a full single player game. It just happens to have a level editor on the side, like Smash Bros. Brawl or Mario vs. DK 2 did. No big deal. Also, the game's only $8.

I just looked up Flipnote Studio on Wikipedia. It's FREE.

I don't see where Nintendo is ripping off the consumer with User Generated Content anywhere here. Unless you believe Malstrom's right when he says that Wii Music alone marks the dawn of a new era of Nintendo bent on its own destruction. What's Nintendo going to do? Fire all their artists and stop making art so they can just make UGC-only games? Because the only person here asking Nintendo to fire any artists is Malstrom.



Onyxmeth said:
liquidninja said:
theRepublic said:
Malstrom needs to learn to read. Nowhere was he arrogant. Nowhere did Miyamoto blame consumers. He wants to learn from the mistakes in that game to make a better game.

Malstrom needs to stop blogging so much and work on those articles he claims are coming. He has been making factual errors and now this. He needs to evaluate what he is doing, because lately he seems to think that everything he says is the gospel truth.

How? What did he write that gave you that impression? This has to be at least the fifth time I've seen someone on here express that impression of him.

What I think is going on is that some Nintendo fans have been been treating everything he says as the gospel truth and now that he's expressing unfavorable opinions and analysis of Nintendo's business it's no longer to Nintendo fan's advantage to treat his material that way. Now he's a "old school, nostalgic, random, blogger, who, doesn't know anything about games". Well, he is the same guy who was rooting for Nintendo back when it looked like they were starting a revolution. His only mistake was thinking that Nintendo was serious about it.

I noticed that also. I haven't seen Malstrom change one bit. He's still up the ass about disruption and Blue Ocean strategy, and he's as black and white as ever in what is right and wrong. I really think many people were only happy that he was in Nintendo's corner and weren't really paying attention to him. I must admit I thought he was quite the fanboy for a while and figured he was always creating things to place Nintendo into a good light. Obviously that's not the case.

I don't agree with Miyamoto retiring, but he brings up some good points, and frankly this is exactly what all of his pro-Nintendo shit sounded like also. It was cocky and brash and Nintendo fans supported it and ate it up until he turned on them.

Remember when this guy was praised for taking the unfavorable position and predicting success for the Wii when everyone else said it would fail? He based that on the same principles and lessons that is now telling him that Nintendo is doing something wrong. Maybe he's right or maybe he's wrong, but for those of you that listened to him before, why shut him out now? Why not actually pay attention to what he says? He is after all the one analyst that got it right.

I've seen a lot of change in Malstrom.

He started out by writing articles showing that Nintendo was following Blue Ocean Strategy or Disruption.  He then went on to explain what might happen to the industry according to the theory.  Yes, his writing style was goofy, over-the-top, and he liked to insert himself into the articles to argue with imaginary people who only have weak straw men for arguments.  On the other hand, he was the only person talking about the business strategy that Nintendo themselves said they were using.  For that reason, he caught on.  Especially since this site is more about sales.

Since that time, he started his blog.  Instead of focusing on business strategy, he has been commenting on anything and everything in video games, and in the process, has allowed his own personal bias to start leaking into his writing.  The recent stuff I have seen from him seems colored by his like or dislike for particular games.  He doesn't back up his opinions with facts either.  Look at what he did in this piece.  He quotes Miyamoto, and then goes off on a tangent that is completely unsupported by the quote.  I'm tired of the unsubstantiated claims that we are just supposed to believe.  When you actually look into them, they are just not true.



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The Ghost of RubangB said:
Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again is a full single player game. It just happens to have a level editor on the side, like Smash Bros. Brawl or Mario vs. DK 2 did. No big deal. Also, the game's only $8.

I just looked up Flipnote Studio on Wikipedia. It's FREE.

I don't see where Nintendo is ripping off the consumer with User Generated Content anywhere here. Unless you believe Malstrom's right when he says that Wii Music alone marks the dawn of a new era of Nintendo bent on its own destruction. What's Nintendo going to do? Fire all their artists and stop making art so they can just make UGC-only games? Because the only person here asking Nintendo to fire any artists is Malstrom.

I don't think we were talking about them ripping off anyone. It was weather or not Nintendo was headed towards focusing their games primarily around User Generated Content. Now it sounds to me like Miyamoto and Iwata were the main culprits in the past. But it seems like Miyamoto is still talking about doing it.



theRepublic said:

I've seen a lot of change in Malstrom.

He started out by writing articles showing that Nintendo was following Blue Ocean Strategy or Disruption.  He then went on to explain what might happen to the industry according to the theory.  Yes, his writing style was goofy, over-the-top, and he liked to insert himself into the articles to argue with imaginary people who only have weak straw men for arguments.  On the other hand, he was the only person talking about the business strategy that Nintendo themselves said they were using.  For that reason, he caught on.  Especially since this site is more about sales.

Since that time, he started his blog.  Instead of focusing on business strategy, he has been commenting on anything and everything in video games, and in the process, has allowed his own personal bias to start leaking into his writing.  The recent stuff I have seen from him seems colored by his like or dislike for particular games.  He doesn't back up his opinions with facts either.  Look at what he did in this piece.  He quotes Miyamoto, and then goes off on a tangent that is completely unsupported by the quote.  I'm tired of the unsubstantiated claims that we are just supposed to believe.  When you actually look into them, they are just not true.

That's the thing, you aren't just supposed to believe anything he says blindly. Never except anything at face value especially from Malstrom.

He doesn't have to back up his opinions with facts because that's what makes them opinions. You seem want him to be right all the time. But that not the motivation for his site. He's always saying he wants to learn about business. If he's always right then what is he really learning?

I think the change you've seen from Malstrom is that his Blog posts are not complete articles instead they are his moment by moment take on current events. That many blog posts on a weekly basis will never be as complete as a gradually written article.



Every article from Maelstrom is always full of anger. Hes always angry at someone usually its someone anti Nintendo but now hes mad at Miyamoto and we need to ask ourselves why? Is there a reason to be mad at a company because sales of their console are lower than we wanted? i just dont get it.



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