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Forums - Nintendo - SEGA: Its not game over for Mature Wii Titles

theRepublic on 01 July 2009
Exblackman said:
Procrastinato said:
noname2200 said:
Procrastinato said:

SMG was made by Nintendo EAD Tokyo, and it was their only project during its duration.

SMG duration: 2.5 years (source: Yoshiaki Koizumi, director, SMG.  EDGE Online post-mortem.  http://www.edge-online.com/features/post-mortem-super-mario-galaxy?page=0,0)

EAD Tokyo size: 65 (source: IGN database, http://games.ign.com/objects/762/762797.html)

Average cost to develop a game, per dev, per year (survey sometime before 2005, Gamasutra... find the link yourself, since I'm too lazy): $100K

 

Then of course, there's that "math" thing, which people love to question.  2.5 x 65 x 100K = 16.25 million, at a minimum.  Oh unless you think the best of the best, i.e. Nintendo, costs less than average.

There's an actual quote somewhere from a Nintendo source (it may have even been Miyamoto), stating this number almost exactly.  I can't find it at the moment though, and I'm tired of searching for it.  If anyone honestly doubts the math, and really want to pretend SMG just rolled off some generic cheap assembly line... feel free (not referring to you noname2000... you're being decent) to disprove the math here, or find the quote and show me that I misread it, since this, and it, represents a hell of a lot more than some ridiculous "Wii development is cheepz" fantasy being cooked up here, and in many foolhardy threads of the past on these boards.

The numbers check out. The only part I'd quibble with is the assumption that all 65 employees were always working on the game, even during pre-production (Nintendo teams tend to cross-pollinate with other teams a lot, especially when they're not needed in their own team) and that the figure exclude important outside costs, such as the orchestrated music (which can't have come cheap). I was hoping you had the quote from the Nintendo employee, since I heard such a quote existed, but I've never actually read it, and I've heard different figures attributed to him/her.

 

There are some quotes from Miyamoto stating that the initial dev team on SMG was "much smaller" than the team working on SSBB, at the time (which was around 70-80).  EAD Tokyo had not yet grown to its current size, at SMGs beginning, and they didn't need that many to upgrade the SMS engine to be SMGs basis.  The number I actually heard was "$16.8 million", although as I said, I cannot find the source.  That seems right on track, given that EAD Tokyo was smaller at the start, doing a conversion of SMS, but that the team grew over the dev cycle (as is typical), and that the best-of-the-best that is Nintendo's game dev elite probably cost around 1.5x as much as the "average joe" developer.

You also need to consider that some engine tech from SMS was used, and this saved both time and money.  Using Nintendo as an example is a poor method, however -- Nintendo goes to great lengths to make quality games, and pays their top devs very well.

That said, Stranglehold (used by other posters as an example), is also an oddball, in that it reviewed poorly, and is widely known to have been excessive, in terms of development costs and budget overruns -- another bad example.

The Conduit, by the "usual" method of calculations likely cost somewhere between 10-15 million to make -- HVS has 150 employees (source, their website: http://www.high-voltage.com/index.htm), The Conduit was their biggest project (by far), and they posted screenshots as early as April of 2008, which suggests they were near alpha at the time.  It took them MUCH longer than 1.75 years to make the Quantum Engine and The Conduit together -- and you cannot discount costs sunk into the engine as not being in the dev cost if you're trying to make a statement about cost-to-develop on a system -- just as quoting Gears/Gears 2 as being "cheap" to develop by Epic cannot discount the scads of work in the Unreal Engine that Epic themselves has invested by this point.

The idea that "Wii" games are cheaper to develop is a fallacy.  The truth is that lesser games are cheaper to develop, and if you want quality, you must spend.  I doubt that developing quality games, with the tech limitations of the Wii in mind, costs as much as developing a quality HD game, in most scenarios.  However, the "4-to-1" ratio often cited is incredibly misleading, even erroneous, taken in any serious context.

You did not read the above post HVS already stated that whole staff was not working on The Conduit at any given time the Producer say only half  were working at  any given time since They working on  titles in conjuction.Example Astro Boy the Game., Dora The Explorer,Gyrostarr and Hot Rod, Animales de Muerte where all made in the same time Frame as The Conduit so it is absoutely no way all 150 Employess were working on the Conduit.So Your math Is way off my Friend.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

There is this interview, which says that The Conduit was in development starting October 2007 with 30 people on the team.  By September 2008, they had finished the content of the game and started the testing phase.



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moondeep on 01 July 2009

Not that I believe his numbers, but Pacther's latest estimates (including average development costs for each system) are available now.

http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=4129



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Procrastinato on 02 July 2009
theRepublic said:
Exblackman said:

You did not read the above post HVS already stated that whole staff was not working on The Conduit at any given time the Producer say only half  were working at  any given time since They working on  titles in conjuction.Example Astro Boy the Game., Dora The Explorer,Gyrostarr and Hot Rod, Animales de Muerte where all made in the same time Frame as The Conduit so it is absoutely no way all 150 Employess were working on the Conduit.So Your math Is way off my Friend.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

There is this interview, which says that The Conduit was in development starting October 2007 with 30 people on the team.  By September 2008, they had finished the content of the game and started the testing phase.

First off, I never said all 150 were working on The Conduit -- I said it was their largest project, which is true.  Secondly, the 30 devs quoted in the article were using the well-on-its-way Quantum Engine to specifically develop a particular game.  Another 15-20 were probably assigned to HVS' upcoming gladatorial game, another few to the WiiWare game they released recently, etc.  And probably a good 50 were working on their shared Quantum Engine technology.

Exblackman: do the math, if I thought all 150 employees of HVS were working on The Conduit from start to finish, why would I have put my estimate between 10-15 million, when it should have been closer to 40 million, with that many?

Republic: You're cherry picking, trying to make your argument look better than it is.  By claiming that "30 people" made the Conduit, according to a quote in an interview made at the beginning of the project, you're assuming that (a) the project never grew, which would be unlike just about every serious game endeavor of the past 10 years, and implying that (b) they cooked up their impressive Wii engine for free beforehand, or in short enough time to produce the April screenshots shown all over the web.  If it was so easy, and so cheap, wouldn't everyone have done the same... or are you assuming that HVS is composed of the world's greatest collection of devs, who, coincidentally, are also willing to work dirt cheap?

The truth is that they had invested millions into their engine already, by October 2007, and that those millions "count", since any other dev would have to do the same to accomplish the same task.

 

Wii development is not significantly cheaper, if you're going for quality, and believing otherwise is simply turning a blind eye to the facts of the games business, and well-wishing.  The same grade of shovelware games that publishers love to use in their "Wii games cost so much less" stats, would be just as cheap on the HD consoles.



 

theRepublic on 02 July 2009
Procrastinato said:

Republic: You're cherry picking, trying to make your argument look better than it is.  By claiming that "30 people" made the Conduit, according to a quote in an interview made at the beginning of the project, you're assuming that (a) the project never grew, which would be unlike just about every serious game endeavor of the past 10 years, and implying that (b) they cooked up their impressive Wii engine for free beforehand, or in short enough time to produce the April screenshots shown all over the web.  If it was so easy, and so cheap, wouldn't everyone have done the same... or are you assuming that HVS is composed of the world's greatest collection of devs, who, coincidentally, are also willing to work dirt cheap?

Did you read the interview?  The game started development in October 2007.  The interview was in September of 2008.  They said that the team was 30 people, and that the game was content complete and focus testing and tweaking was needed from that point on.

The truth is that they had invested millions into their engine already, by October 2007, and that those millions "count", since any other dev would have to do the same to accomplish the same task.

Did you know that the engine existed long before the Wii and has been used in other games they have made?  It was just optimized for the Wii.  Did you also know that it is being used in their other two announced Wii games?

Wii development is not significantly cheaper, if you're going for quality, and believing otherwise is simply turning a blind eye to the facts of the games business, and well-wishing.  The same grade of shovelware games that publishers love to use in their "Wii games cost so much less" stats, would be just as cheap on the HD consoles.

You have been proven wrong on this time and time again.  When will you give it up?



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Exblackman on 02 July 2009
theRepublic said:
Procrastinato said:

Republic: You're cherry picking, trying to make your argument look better than it is.  By claiming that "30 people" made the Conduit, according to a quote in an interview made at the beginning of the project, you're assuming that (a) the project never grew, which would be unlike just about every serious game endeavor of the past 10 years, and implying that (b) they cooked up their impressive Wii engine for free beforehand, or in short enough time to produce the April screenshots shown all over the web.  If it was so easy, and so cheap, wouldn't everyone have done the same... or are you assuming that HVS is composed of the world's greatest collection of devs, who, coincidentally, are also willing to work dirt cheap?

Did you read the interview?  The game started development in October 2007.  The interview was in September of 2008.  They said that the team was 30 people, and that the game was content complete and focus testing and tweaking was needed from that point on.

The truth is that they had invested millions into their engine already, by October 2007, and that those millions "count", since any other dev would have to do the same to accomplish the same task.

Did you know that the engine existed long before the Wii and has been used in other games they have made?  It was just optimized for the Wii.  Did you also know that it is being used in their other two announced Wii games?

Wii development is not significantly cheaper, if you're going for quality, and believing otherwise is simply turning a blind eye to the facts of the games business, and well-wishing.  The same grade of shovelware games that publishers love to use in their "Wii games cost so much less" stats, would be just as cheap on the HD consoles.

You have been proven wrong on this time and time again.  When will you give it up?


RN: I’m not sure I know that myself. Hmm… I mean we’ve been in production since October 2007, and we’ve had a pretty steady team - Of course it varies as time goes on as people ramp off or ramp on, and things of that nature, but 30 – 40 people for let’s see, like a year and a half? I don’t know the specific numbers but you can draw your conclusions from there.

This from a interview I found Here

 




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noname2200 on 02 July 2009
Procrastinato said:

Wii development is not significantly cheaper, if you're going for quality

That's quite the indefensible position you've taken there, one that requires ignoring reams of known data and statements.



Moonhero on 02 July 2009

I hope they make a M rated game where you play as Robotnic and kill off all of the new characters that have been added to Sonic games over the last ten years.



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SaviorX on 02 July 2009

Wii games are definitely much cheaper. I don't see how The Conduit could've exceeded $9m either.

The "HD" games that are supposedly not much more expensive than the Wii need to sell at least 1 million to break even. Not get profit, break even.

For example, Dead Space sold 1.4 million between the 360 and the PS3 and still wasn't seen as a truly profitable venture. It underperformed somehow.



Leatherhat on July 6th, 2012 3pm. Vita sales:"3 mil for COD 2 mil for AC. Maybe more. "  thehusbo on July 6th, 2012 5pm. Vita sales:"5 mil for COD 2.2 mil for AC."

silentmac on 02 July 2009

@ Moonhero

Oooh I like the way you think!

And bring back the Shining Force series or remake Shining Force 3 as a SRPG. None of this action RPG Playstation BS!



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MasterZack on 02 July 2009

Well, i have from SEGA MadWorld and sool ill buy The Conduit... but i still thinking SEGA is risking too much



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