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Forums - Sales - Xbox 360 more wanted than playstation 3?

This is plausible, although I would be surprised if they didn't manage to get a special rate from the consortium. At the very least I would expect which ever group at Sony given sway over Blu-ray to have to front the bill for it, at least in their internal accounting. If they use an internel currency (pretty much identical in design and function of the rouble in the Soviet Union... seriously) for interdepartmental resource allocation like IBM and Microsoft -- I only mention these two because I am familiar with their schemes -- it could easily be that SCE's blueray costs are being subsidised. This wouldn't show up in Sony's fillings, but it would be considered reality at Sony. This would also explain why SCE seems to have come off pretty unscathed in Sony's company wide belt-tightening, since the cost of the PS3 to Sony as a whole wouldn't be the same as the cost to SCE.

(The most recent data I had was a $10 fee per player, but you may be right as the PS3 did esure the victory of the format, and theres also the internal currency thing to promote inter-department cooperation which may not exist explicitly but probably something similar exists at least implicitly in their internal organisation.)

Rambus would be my first guess for IP related PS3 costs being higher than the 360s as they are notorius in the industry.

(Yes I agree, Rambus can be quite naughty when it comes to charging high fees for the use of their patents. Also they have about zero love from the other memory manufacturers considering the RD-Ram/DDR patent debacle.)

True enough, but how much that is going to matter is going to be a function of how many new fab processes we are going to see before the systems end of life. The 8Gb usb flash drives on froogle seem to start at $10. Wholesale bulk prices for just the NAND chips should be at least a little bit cheaper. Not sure if 8gb would be enough to support the bare minimum on the PS3, but the point is we are a 1 or 2 shrinks away from the point at which adding minimal, functional flash storage is almost a non-cost. I expect the 360 entry level models, possibly even coinciding with the release of NATAL, to eventually go this route also.

(The problem with using flash is that cannot get away with using anything less than 30GB internal flash and they cannot just install NAND flash without a controller. If you go by typical performance the flash inside the PS3 has to conform to both the performance level of the mechanical HDD which necessitates more expensive, faster flash and the expense of a flash controller and they have to install enough of it to manage the compulsary installs which means ~25-30GB would be the minimum level. For comparisons sake you should look to SSD prices and work backwards rather than flash prices and work forwards because I don't see how you can spot the flash controller price naked.

Microsoft on the other hand can install relatively small amounts of reasonably slow flash without the controller and get away with it as all games are designed to work off a much slower transfer speed which is the average or maximum speed of the optical drive which is only 14MB/s maximum if I recall correctly. If they really got keen they could likely beef the flash storage space up past 20GB if they wanted to. The conflict of interest they face there however is eating into their profitable HDD revenues.)

The royalties may be expensive, but I highly doubt Sony forgot to guarentee their freedom to migrate to SoC as the generation progresses. Their is also no way Sony doesn't have access to the Verilog/VHDL code, although there should be no doubt that everyone who walks within 10 feet of it must sign 10,000 NDAs in blood.For a more complicated PCB as they have dual 128 bit buses so they will likely need a larger board and or more layers long term than the Xbox 360.

(You should know this better than me, however the transfer properties of the two faster ram types are different from the XD ram that the PS3 currently uses. I don't think the explicit DMA model of the Cell would tolerate ram which had a higher latency and both DDR3 and GDDR5 aren't designed for strict low latency.

The other issue is that Nvidia and IBM are now likely competitors in the HPC space. I wonder how willingly the villian Nvidia will let the hero IBM examine its designs and the opposite is true with the design of the Cell. If the Cell and G300 aren't direct competitors already theres probably a design in the pipeline for an upcoming generation which would make them competitors.)

I disagree here, I think the opposite is likely in the limit for the Blu-ray player in the PS3 and the dvd player in the 360. The later must have a motor capable of spining the disk at a much higher velocity than the former. The new diode in the blu-ray drive is a solid-state device. At least in recent history, Solid-state devices tend to fall in costs on the timescale of months, whereas advances and cost reductions of mechanical devices tend to happen over decades.

(Hmm, high speed DVD motors will be around for a while as I don't see DVD support being dropped from computers for a long long time, but on the other hand I would say that the Blu Ray drive would likely still cost a little more but that will be negligable due to needing both a blue and red diode)

I think the IP Sony sold to toshiba was for the next gen cell and the actual fabs which they built back in the halcyon days of 90nm when anyone could have a fab in their garage :P. Even if they didn't, I doubt they wouldn't have negotiated a clause to use it with the PS3.

There are only three groups with 45nm fabs: Intel, TSMC, and a consortium of everyone else led by IBM which drefrays the costs of going 45nm all it's members. TSMC had to drop high-k metal gate tech from their initial plans without which 45nm is of marginal value and I'm not sure if Chipzilla even lets 3rd parties use their 45nm fabs as their fab lead is main advantage of their chips. So that leaves only IBM's superfriends group as a potential fab for both Sony and MS.

(TSMCs 40NM process is a world of hurt. Check Newegg for the HD 4770 which was technically released months ago! The recent reports I hear are still pegging yields at ~30% which is rediculous considering AMD is using the same fine grain redundancy they used with the RV770 and managed to get exceedingly good yields from the 55nm half node process. Maybe TSMC needs to become an IBM superfriend too!

To be honest, im half expecting a switch to Globalfoundries for Microsofts Xbox 360 chips this year)

lol, that's right squilliam go right for the ego, you'll have me back in redmond's camp in no time :P (seriously though, thanks for the compliment)

(hehe, you have the huge advantage in that you both work in the industry and you can ask someone and they will actually answer your questions for things you don't know. I have to piece together hearsay and opinion! )

 

 

 

 

 



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Well since the 360 is selling more than the PS3 i would say more people want a 360.



Looking good for Xbox 360.



At this point, just looking at sales, the 360 is more desired, if listening to the people on this site, the PS3 is more desired.
I can see where the 360 may be more desired because more people have them, and who doesn't want to play with their friends?
I can also see where the PS3 could be more desired at this point in time because everybody who wants a gaming console already has a 360, and now, they want a PS3.
One must remember, it all depends on what is going on with the console during a certain time period. One example, when Forza3 comes out, I think the 360 will definitely be more desirable. When GT5 comes out, I think the PS3 will become more desirable.



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Component issues aside, the PS3 price reductions to date, allowing Sony to relatively speaking move in lock step with Microsoft - have been possible because of residual strong PS2 software sales, and decent hardware sales (it did afterall outsell PS3/360 in 2007). PSP is also a profitable device for hardware and software at the moment - and Sony is still losing money in the gaming division.

Over the next few years here is what happens:

1) Sony spends tons of R & D on motion controllers

2) Sony loses PS2 software revenue, PSP software revenues and hardware revenues will probably decline slowly unless PSP Go completely flops

3) Sony begins development/planning PS4/PSP2

 

Microsoft just has 360. If 360 does better, they make more money on gaming, and if it doesn't Windows keeps it chugging along financially.

With PS2 about gone in terms of subsidizing cost, and PS3 now trending below PS1 in every world region, PSP Go is being released at $250 to try to offset some of the lost financial flexibility. But it probably won't work mainly because PSP software is already declining worldwide even though hardware sales are peaking at very respectable (~75% the PS1 shipment peak) totals.

This is how I see it at the moment for Sony:

March 2008 Year - PS2 154m, PSP 56m, PS3 58m (268m)

March 2009 Year - PS2 84m, PSP 50m, PS3 104m (238m)

March 2010 Year - PS2 50m, PSP 45m, PS3 125m (220m) (Miss projection of 240m by about 9%)

March 2011 Year - PS2 25m, PSP 35m, PS3 150m (210m)

March 2012 Year - PS2  8m, PSP 32m, PS3 130m (170m)....PSP2 (10m)...180m

 

The royalties from PSP and PS2 software are going to dry up to the point where Sony is going to have trouble dealing with the might of Microsoft financially when 360 development is easier to jusitfy from a royalty, user base, and game cost perspective to many publishers. Wii and DS offer less risk as well. In Japan, if you make a third party exclusive game for DS for the region and it sells 100k, your reaching less than one in two hundred DS owners and you can be profitable on that. For PS3, an exclusive for Japan needs to reach 1 in 6 users at least to be profitable. Wii and PSP fit snugly in between, but until DS stops being the least risky platform, it will continue to kill everything in Japan, while PS3 simultaneously suffers from the Wii and 360 and DS bases in the west.



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I did economics and I can say that price is the main sign of desire of a product. If the X360 is only 20%-10% above the PS3 in sales, but have at least a 25% price difference($299/399 = 74,9%), based on the average model, than we can say that the PS3 is the more desired. There's also the fact that the X360 sales are shared between the SKU's, but I would bet that if you took out the Arcade model, the sales would dip below PS3's. Let's face it, apart from the US, where people really like the X360, in the rest of the world people are getting the X360 only beacause the PS3 is still $399.
Last year prove my argument. While there wasn't a Arcade model and a price cut, the X360 was behind, after that it was in front. In matter of fact, if it repeated last year's sales up to now, the X360 would be on par or behind the PS3, and the PS3 is down YoY. The X360 is up YoY and in the beggining of 2009 was up almost 20%.
Just take a look at Killzone 2 realease week. The X360 was even down WoW, at 180k but up compared with the similar week in 2008(120k).The price cut and Arcade did it. The numbers shows it.



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WheelStriker said:

Judging by the sales, it seems that the xbox 360 has been outselling the playstation 3 since the price cut and has an overall sale of 30 million units vs 22 million units of playstation 3 sales.

I hear people say that sales shows the xbox 360 is the more desired console to buy than the playstation 3 and I also hear that the playstation 3 is the more desired console because of the exclusives. After hearing both sides, I don't know which side to believe.

So is the xbox 360 really a more desired console to buy than the playstation 3 simply because it has more sales?

If by 'wanted' you mean 'demand' then the sales figures being so close imply the PS3 has a potentially higher underlying demand.

This is because basic demand theory would imply that if PS3 sells roughly the same as 360 at a higher price, it would sell more than the 360 were they the same price - ergo, it has better demand than 360 at a comparable price point.

However that's just theory, as the Source indicates they're unlikely to ever be the same price, so will see sales aligned to the relationship between their individual price points and associated features.

Given the current sales, should Sony drop the price I'd say MS would immediately have to lower 360 price as well to maintain the slightly weekly sales advantage they have.

EDIT: sorry aavidbacon, didn't realise I was typing same thing as you!  But I agree with your view



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Carl2291 said:
kowenicki said:
@carl

Wont happen... ever.

There will always be a price differential andf there will always be a sales differential.. PS3 will never, ever catch up.

I agree the price thing wont happen...

But i want to see pictures of your time machine.


http://science.discovery.com/interactives/time-machine/time-machine.html

I used this handy guide and found out that the PS3 never takes over the 360 in total sales



Pictures with you in it... or i refuse to belive



                            

360 is half hte price and out 130% of the time.. with this in mind 130% of the PS3 sales is not really impressive.. actually its really unimpressive..



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