Both work well in their respective games. Half Life 2 and FPS in general are built for immersion and it would be hard to implement many of the plot points of any FF game into the gameplay.

Also, don't forget about what Beyond Good and Evil does, that game uses a combination of real time cutscenes, audio disks and witty banter during actual gameplay.

wfz said: Smeags said: I'd go for the latter. I've never been a huge fan of cut scenes in a game, and I always appreciate it when a developer implements the story or important information in the actual game as you're playing it. Audio Diaries in Bioshock, Scannable objects in Metroid Prime... these are great examples of creative storytelling. Speaking of images on walls telling stories, Sonic & Knuckles is another great example:   Win!   Since when does Lambda represent decaying life? I never heard that before now... is it just the meaning in Half-Life?   Considering I haven't played Half-Life, that image really doesn't do much for me. Your second image is a better example I think, but I don't look at it and think it's telling much of a story. Maybe if it was a real crack instead of just an artificial one, I would think of it as a better story.   I'm going with the video for these particular examples.

Really?  Man, I get so much just looking at that crack.

• What occurred to make it happen (assuming I don't know what it is, I wish I could have found a picture of it filled in since that would be even more interesting).
• Why are the people walking over it like nothing?
• Is it a normal occurance?
• If if isn't why hasn't it been repaired (again, assuming I don't know why it's there)
• If it was placed there in purpose, why?
• where does it lead if I follow it?
• how deep does it go?

With the Half-Life 2 picture, you get things like:

• You see the impact you made on the world in the previous game
• someone cares enough to go out of their way in a dangerous place to place that there.  You inspired that.
• It's a pretty strong symbol in the game
• There must be something of use nearby

So yeah, it should be obvious that I like little clues in the environment like that to tell my stories rather than large elaborate cut scenes.

Does a picture really tell a story, or is your mind fabricating or telling the story itself?

The pictures get you thinking more, that's for sure. I'd say that it's your own mind that's telling you the story though. Pictures definitely don't tell as much of a story as videos do in the way I think of "telling a story".

twesterm said: wfz said: Smeags said: I'd go for the latter. I've never been a huge fan of cut scenes in a game, and I always appreciate it when a developer implements the story or important information in the actual game as you're playing it. Audio Diaries in Bioshock, Scannable objects in Metroid Prime... these are great examples of creative storytelling. Speaking of images on walls telling stories, Sonic & Knuckles is another great example:   Win!   Since when does Lambda represent decaying life? I never heard that before now... is it just the meaning in Half-Life?   Considering I haven't played Half-Life, that image really doesn't do much for me. Your second image is a better example I think, but I don't look at it and think it's telling much of a story. Maybe if it was a real crack instead of just an artificial one, I would think of it as a better story.   I'm going with the video for these particular examples.   Really?  Man, I get so much just looking at that crack. What occurred to make it happen (assuming I don't know what it is, I wish I could have found a picture of it filled in since that would be even more interesting). Why are the people walking over it like nothing? Is it a normal occurance? If if isn't why hasn't it been repaired (again, assuming I don't know why it's there) If it was placed there in purpose, why? where does it lead if I follow it? how deep does it go? With the Half-Life 2 picture, you get things like: You see the impact you made on the world in the previous game someone cares enough to go out of their way in a dangerous place to place that there.  You inspired that. It's a pretty strong symbol in the game There must be something of use nearby So yeah, it should be obvious that I like little clues in the environment like that to tell my stories rather than large elaborate cut scenes.

So then is the crack telling the story, or is your mind finding it's own story to understand the situation of the crack? :P

The videos are literally telling the story, while the pictures don't say much of anything unless you get your own mind thinking. But then, isn't your mind coming up with the ideas and stories?

I do think that pictures have a very great chance to help make you think and wonder about stories, and I absolutely loved the murals in Sonic and Knuckles like the one that Smeags posted. I'd take that over a cutscene for sure.

I have never played half life 2 but I have played Half life.
Neverthless, I still dont understand how this simple picture and the lamda symbol give you any story element ...

At the opposed, the whole cutscene give a LOT of element (well depending of the quality of the cutscene of course)

so in your example, I go with FF

wfz said: twesterm said: wfz said: Smeags said: I'd go for the latter. I've never been a huge fan of cut scenes in a game, and I always appreciate it when a developer implements the story or important information in the actual game as you're playing it. Audio Diaries in Bioshock, Scannable objects in Metroid Prime... these are great examples of creative storytelling. Speaking of images on walls telling stories, Sonic & Knuckles is another great example:   Win!   Since when does Lambda represent decaying life? I never heard that before now... is it just the meaning in Half-Life?   Considering I haven't played Half-Life, that image really doesn't do much for me. Your second image is a better example I think, but I don't look at it and think it's telling much of a story. Maybe if it was a real crack instead of just an artificial one, I would think of it as a better story.   I'm going with the video for these particular examples.   Really?  Man, I get so much just looking at that crack. What occurred to make it happen (assuming I don't know what it is, I wish I could have found a picture of it filled in since that would be even more interesting). Why are the people walking over it like nothing? Is it a normal occurance? If if isn't why hasn't it been repaired (again, assuming I don't know why it's there) If it was placed there in purpose, why? where does it lead if I follow it? how deep does it go? With the Half-Life 2 picture, you get things like: You see the impact you made on the world in the previous game someone cares enough to go out of their way in a dangerous place to place that there.  You inspired that. It's a pretty strong symbol in the game There must be something of use nearby So yeah, it should be obvious that I like little clues in the environment like that to tell my stories rather than large elaborate cut scenes.   So then is the crack telling the story, or is your mind finding it's own story to understand the situation of the crack? :P The videos are literally telling the story, while the pictures don't say much of anything unless you get your own mind thinking. But then, isn't your mind coming up with the ideas and stories?   I do think that pictures have a very great chance to help make you think and wonder about stories, and I absolutely loved the murals in Sonic and Knuckles like the one that Smeags posted. I'd take that over a cutscene for sure.

Well what story is going to stick with you more: the one that is fed to you or the one that you become a part of because you're figuring it out?

@wfz.

Its way too hard to explain so i wikid it for ya
"The main reason the lambda was used frequently throughout the series, is because in science and mathematics, the lambda symbol is the decay constant"

A lot of it depends on the person. Some (most?) people enjoy being spoon-fed the story, and to be honest I can't blame them. On the other hand, I personally prefer having to peice together things myself (assuming there's actually anything there to peice together...).

I think that of the most recent games I've played, Fallout 3 does a great job of doing the latter. Ignore the main story (please), and go exploring the ruins of D.C. You'll find that the game has TONS of small stories scattered throughout the wastelands, but few of them are ever just handed out to you.

For example, one building sets up this great moment where you enter and find a skeletal corpse with two ammo cans around it, but no explanation of what happened. The building itself is infested with feral ghouls. Deeper in the building you find a second skeletal corpse, just outside a small closet, with several ghouls huddled near it. If you search the closet, you find a small note detailing the tale of a guy who's cornered by ghouls and out of ammo, but he knows his friend is coming soon with supplies. In fact, he thinks he hears someone calling his name, and he's going to go check...

Strangely, I felt for that guy (who I'd never met) more than I did for my dad or any other main character.

twesterm said: wfz said: twesterm said: wfz said: Smeags said: I'd go for the latter. I've never been a huge fan of cut scenes in a game, and I always appreciate it when a developer implements the story or important information in the actual game as you're playing it. Audio Diaries in Bioshock, Scannable objects in Metroid Prime... these are great examples of creative storytelling. Speaking of images on walls telling stories, Sonic & Knuckles is another great example:   Win!   Since when does Lambda represent decaying life? I never heard that before now... is it just the meaning in Half-Life?   Considering I haven't played Half-Life, that image really doesn't do much for me. Your second image is a better example I think, but I don't look at it and think it's telling much of a story. Maybe if it was a real crack instead of just an artificial one, I would think of it as a better story.   I'm going with the video for these particular examples.   Really?  Man, I get so much just looking at that crack. What occurred to make it happen (assuming I don't know what it is, I wish I could have found a picture of it filled in since that would be even more interesting). Why are the people walking over it like nothing? Is it a normal occurance? If if isn't why hasn't it been repaired (again, assuming I don't know why it's there) If it was placed there in purpose, why? where does it lead if I follow it? how deep does it go? With the Half-Life 2 picture, you get things like: You see the impact you made on the world in the previous game someone cares enough to go out of their way in a dangerous place to place that there.  You inspired that. It's a pretty strong symbol in the game There must be something of use nearby So yeah, it should be obvious that I like little clues in the environment like that to tell my stories rather than large elaborate cut scenes.   So then is the crack telling the story, or is your mind finding it's own story to understand the situation of the crack? :P The videos are literally telling the story, while the pictures don't say much of anything unless you get your own mind thinking. But then, isn't your mind coming up with the ideas and stories?   I do think that pictures have a very great chance to help make you think and wonder about stories, and I absolutely loved the murals in Sonic and Knuckles like the one that Smeags posted. I'd take that over a cutscene for sure.   Well what story is going to stick with you more: the one that is fed to you or the one that you become a part of because you're figuring it out?

Just say it straight out Twes.  You think that telling a more subtle story that the player has to figure out for himself is better than one that is explicitly explained.  Done.

twesterm said: wfz said: twesterm said: wfz said: Smeags said: I'd go for the latter. I've never been a huge fan of cut scenes in a game, and I always appreciate it when a developer implements the story or important information in the actual game as you're playing it. Audio Diaries in Bioshock, Scannable objects in Metroid Prime... these are great examples of creative storytelling. Speaking of images on walls telling stories, Sonic & Knuckles is another great example:   Win!   Since when does Lambda represent decaying life? I never heard that before now... is it just the meaning in Half-Life?   Considering I haven't played Half-Life, that image really doesn't do much for me. Your second image is a better example I think, but I don't look at it and think it's telling much of a story. Maybe if it was a real crack instead of just an artificial one, I would think of it as a better story.   I'm going with the video for these particular examples.   Really?  Man, I get so much just looking at that crack. What occurred to make it happen (assuming I don't know what it is, I wish I could have found a picture of it filled in since that would be even more interesting). Why are the people walking over it like nothing? Is it a normal occurance? If if isn't why hasn't it been repaired (again, assuming I don't know why it's there) If it was placed there in purpose, why? where does it lead if I follow it? how deep does it go? With the Half-Life 2 picture, you get things like: You see the impact you made on the world in the previous game someone cares enough to go out of their way in a dangerous place to place that there.  You inspired that. It's a pretty strong symbol in the game There must be something of use nearby So yeah, it should be obvious that I like little clues in the environment like that to tell my stories rather than large elaborate cut scenes.   So then is the crack telling the story, or is your mind finding it's own story to understand the situation of the crack? :P The videos are literally telling the story, while the pictures don't say much of anything unless you get your own mind thinking. But then, isn't your mind coming up with the ideas and stories? I do think that pictures have a very great chance to help make you think and wonder about stories, and I absolutely loved the murals in Sonic and Knuckles like the one that Smeags posted. I'd take that over a cutscene for sure.   Well what story is going to stick with you more: the one that is fed to you or the one that you become a part of because you're figuring it out?

Well damn, the answer is pretty obvious. :P I edited my post (it's the last paragraph in this quote) in case you missed it.

Carl, thanks. I never knew that before... it's strange. My major is fairly math focused as well. Why do I not know these things!