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Forums - General - Bush Era Torture Memos Released

The Army Field Manual says it is torture.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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akuma587 said:
The Army Field Manual says it is torture.

 

All special operations units in all branches of the U.S. military employ the use of waterboarding as part of survival school (SERE) training, to psychologically prepare soldiers for the eventuality of being captured by the enemy forces.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Tyrannical said:
akuma587 said:
The Army Field Manual says it is torture.

 

All special operations units in all branches of the U.S. military employ the use of waterboarding as part of survival school (SERE) training, to psychologically prepare soldiers for the eventuality of being captured by the enemy forces.

...so that they will be ready if they are tortured...

If you consent to it, then its not necessarily torture.  I don't think any of these prisoners were consenting to being waterboarded.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

OHMYGODDOUBLEPOST



Tyrannical said:

 

You're right, dead right. But dead just the same if you can't get the information out of them.

Seriously? You're fearmongering, one of those people who make out terrorism to be a bigger threat than it is just so things like torture of detainees can go ahead. Chances are well and truly against me you or anybody on this forum ever dieing of terrorism, whether we torture people or not. Is it worth throwing away the rights that actually make the Western countries better nations to live in just to have a minutely increased chance of foiling a terrorist plot?

 

@Rpruett. Yes so holding men indefinately and torturing them isn't breaching their right to habeus corpus or a trial at all now is it?

Edit: Also I'm not an American and I'm definately not pro-constitution =P. Its just that the right wing of politics generally justifies itself by going on about how it is pro-constitution and then ignores the bill of rights half the time.



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Rath said:
Tyrannical said:

 

You're right, dead right. But dead just the same if you can't get the information out of them.

Seriously? You're fearmongering, one of those people who make out terrorism to be a bigger threat than it is just so things like torture of detainees can go ahead. Chances are well and truly against me you or anybody on this forum ever dieing of terrorism, whether we torture people or not. Is it worth throwing away the rights that actually make the Western countries better nations to live in just to have a minutely increased chance of foiling a terrorist plot?

 

Is it really fear mongering?  At any given time there are hundreds of terror cells in the US or around the world.  It's not about a few thousand people losing their lives due to Terrorist attacks.  It's the constant threat and paranoia that it creates.   (See Israel on a daily basis).   It's the devastation of public confidence .    (How much money was lost as a result of 9/11,  look it up).   Our Airline industries still haven't fully recovered from that. 

 

@Rpruett. Yes so holding men indefinately and torturing them isn't breaching their right to habeus corpus or a trial at all now is it?

Depends on the circumstances of their capture.  I'm not the one using the broad brush.  You are. 

If they  have information that deals with national security of citizens of this country?   We have a right to know what it is and stop something of that nature from occurring within reason. 

 

Edit: Also I'm not an American and I'm definately not pro-constitution =P. Its just that the right wing of politics generally justifies itself by going on about how it is pro-constitution and then ignores the bill of rights half the time.

Both sides of the aisle are hypocritical and contradict themselves.  This isn't a Right wing phenomenon.  

 

 



Rath said:

Seriously? You're fearmongering, one of those people who make out terrorism to be a bigger threat than it is just so things like torture of detainees can go ahead.

 

You're right. We made up all this terrorist talk just so we could torture some poor arabs for kicks.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Rpruett said:
Rath said:
Tyrannical said:

 

You're right, dead right. But dead just the same if you can't get the information out of them.

Seriously? You're fearmongering, one of those people who make out terrorism to be a bigger threat than it is just so things like torture of detainees can go ahead. Chances are well and truly against me you or anybody on this forum ever dieing of terrorism, whether we torture people or not. Is it worth throwing away the rights that actually make the Western countries better nations to live in just to have a minutely increased chance of foiling a terrorist plot?

 

Is it really fear mongering?  At any given time there are hundreds of terror cells in the US or around the world.  It's not about a few thousand people losing their lives due to Terrorist attacks.  It's the constant threat and paranoia that it creates.   (See Israel on a daily basis).   It's the devastation of public confidence .    (How much money was lost as a result of 9/11,  look it up).   Our Airline industries still haven't fully recovered from that. 

Saying that we're all going to die if we don't use torture? Yeah I think thats fearmongering mate.

Also I'm in complete agreement that terrorism is a terrible thing that causes a loss in public confidence and causes threat and paranoia. However the only thing that sets the USA apart as a 'free country' is its human rights and throwing some of the most crucial of those away as the result of terrorism seems to be both irrational and defeatist.

@Rpruett. Yes so holding men indefinately and torturing them isn't breaching their right to habeus corpus or a trial at all now is it?

Depends on the circumstances of their capture.  I'm not the one using the broad brush.  You are. 

If they  have information that deals with national security of citizens of this country?   We have a right to know what it is and stop something of that nature from occurring within reason. 

I'm using a broad brush because human rights are a fairly broad thing. There is a reason the most important document relating to human rights is titled 'Universal Declaration of Human Rights' because they are meant to be universal. So no, I don't believe that you have the right to torture innocent people (or people who have not been found guilty of any crime) because there is a slim possibility that it could prevent a terror attack. In my opinion the 'in reason' in your post stops before torture.

Edit: Also I'm not an American and I'm definately not pro-constitution =P. Its just that the right wing of politics generally justifies itself by going on about how it is pro-constitution and then ignores the bill of rights half the time.

Both sides of the aisle are hypocritical and contradict themselves.  This isn't a Right wing phenomenon.  

Of course its not, but this little bit of hypocrisy is relevant to this debate. If you're going to point out any that the left are guilty of that are relevant then be my guest.

 

 

Edit: @Tyran. Of course you didn't make up all the terrorist talk, you just blew it way out of proportion. We aren't all going to die if we stop torturing people, mmk?

 



Tyrannical said:
I think some of us need a European history refresher to learn what torture actually is.

Oooohhh, I get it! You're referring to the torture that happened all those 100 years ago, before Europe was democratic and before we all agreed on some basic human rights, right? Before modern civilization, right?



Clearly, the prisoners were given water-boarding training to better prepare them shall they be captured.