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Forums - Gaming - I figured out why 3rd parties hesitate to put their best teams on Wii games

WereKitten said:

I wonder why people who downplay graphics and sneers at the "graphic whores" don't look in the mirror more: there's such thing as an "input method whore", you know?

Input devices, graphics, CPU power, they are all _tools and means_ that devs can use to express their art or simply their craft.

Take away means, and you're taking away possibilities. Sometimes you play along the limitations and you come up with great results (great movies were filmed without sound, or in black and white), but sometimes some works of art and craft can't be done without the right means (Fantasia without sound? Zhang Yimou's Hero without colors?).

I don't care about having 1080p or 2160p, but give me any day enough graphics and CPU to have the wonderful facial expressions of HL2, that convey feelings as no game before (and I can't wait for Heavy Rain). Give me enough CPU to have good AI with natural responses, to generate huge worlds, to simulate weather or interaction between magic spells or the accelerated growing of alien plants.

And ask yourself what would have been of Zelda: OOT or the Metroid and Mario franchises if Nintendo never had the graphics or technology to bring them to vibrant 3D worlds.

I don't speak for Rol, obviously, but I have to say that you're falling squarely into the mindset he's outlined. You're looking for developers "to express their art." Who do you think they're trying to impress with that? We the people? Or fellow developers (and the wannabe developers, the "game journalists").

The reason I don't see why there's a "input method whore" is that the "input method" is usually the means, not the ends. The purpose behind the touch screen and the motion controls was to remove barriers between the gamer and the game, i.e. to make it simpler/easier/more intuitive to play the game. Input methods are usually focused on making things easier for the player.

By contrast, great graphics have an entirely different aim: the most customer-focused aspect of them is to "increase immersion." Usually, though, I suspect the true point is to "impress the viewer," which again goes with Rol's point. Focusing on graphics lets the developer sit back at the end of the day, read some forums/websites after releasing screenshots, and congratulate himself on a job well done.

Tell me, though: how many developers can you name that have improved the input method on their game, sat back, and received similar accolades from the forums and websites? How many Game of the Year Awards do you remember Wii Sports getting? Nintendogs? Wii Fit? Focusing on input methods caused millions of people to join gaming, and increased the entertainment they got from our hobby. But do you really reckon those games would have been possible if the developer wanted to "create art," i.e. if they wanted to develop for each other rather than for the masses?

I think your last two paragraphs in particular show that you're kind of missing Rol's point here. He is not a luddite. He does not advocate an end to improved graphics. He doesn't even say that graphics don't matter. He is simply pointing out what I, too, think is an obvious truth: if you develop for the people, i.e. if you make your game fun first and foremost, you will not only be doing a better job at retail, you'll be creating something that will actually be remembered years from now.

The franchises you yourself cited are prime examples of this; we don't remember Ocarina of Time or Mario 64 because they're beautiful, or because they're 3D. We remember them because they're fantastic games. True, the new technology is part of what made the game great, but the new technology was harnessed to improve the gameplay. It was not the point behind the games at all. Look at it this way: neither of the games I've mentioned are the first to do 3D. They're certainly not very pretty by today's standards. So why do we remember them? Because they took the third-dimension and made it fun. They used the tech to make gameplay that hadn't been done before.

And that, in far more words, is basically what Rol points out.

A final note: you may disagree. You may be the type that thinks that games should be art (it appears so from your post, anyways). That's fine, of course. (Who am I to tell you how to feel?) But many, I would daresay most, of us do not feel that way. We want gameplay first, graphics/sounds/"art" afterwards.

We like our gravy, sure, but we prefer that it go with some great mashed potatoes.



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Soma said:
dib8rman said:
Malstrom? Partially correct though.

 

 I was thinking the same, lol

I agree with the OP, but then we see things like Deadly Creatures bombing, and it becomes pretty clear why third parties hesitate to put some effort. (The game may have legs though)

 

 An abstract,different game that had no advertisng campaign,its their fault it bombed.Not pumping cash into advertising a wii game is part of what we're talking about here.Imagine this game being advertised on documentaries,online encyclopedia,horror movie TV-hours and anime websites.



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sergiodaly said:

cod waw its out for ps360 and wii... it sold much more on ps360... this is why 3rd party devs work more on ps360... as simple as that... want to change this? go streaking or some thing like that!

 

by the way... in top 20 best selling wii games ... 15 or so are from nintendo... a hint... stop buying nintendo games so 3rd partys have some room...

Guitar Hero III/Aerosmith/World Tour are out for the PS360 and Wii...they sold much more on the Wii...that is why...

Oops! It would appear that my flawed methodology has not led to a logical solution! I'm shocked!

 

By the way...in the top 10 games of all time for all systems, all of them are Nintendo games. 14 of the top 15 for all systems are Nintendo games. 17 of the top 20. 24 of the top 30. 33 of the top 50 games of all time for all systems are Nintendo games. And of the 17 that aren't, only six of them are not "Final Fantasy, Grand Theft Auto, or Grand Turismo."

So, I guess Nintendo should just leave gaming entirely, just to leave room for the third-parties. Also, so should Rockstar, Squeenix, and Sony Computer Entertainment.

 



mai said:
And that's why the only way Nintendo could get those 3rd parties on Wii - deprive them of choice. First, dominate the market, then castrate all 3rd parties, finally, force them to make games for Wii. This should work =)

and the games would all suck which is what happens when people do things they don't want to do

 



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

sergiodaly said:

cod waw its out for ps360 and wii... it sold much more on ps360... this is why 3rd party devs work more on ps360... as simple as that... want to change this? go streaking or some thing like that!

 

by the way... in top 20 best selling wii games ... 15 or so are from nintendo... a hint... stop buying nintendo games so 3rd partys have some room...

 

 Call of Duty didn't become the big franchise it is now until 4.  I'm sure fans of CoD4, PS360 game, will more readily buy WaW than Wii owners who didn't get CoD4.



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@ noname2000

I think WereKitten was pointing out, that many developers may not want to work with the limitations the Wii has compared to the PS360, and I agree with him, that you should certainly not look at the Wii as the best choice for development, just because of the controls methods it has or because of the userbase.

And while gameplay is certainly a very decisive factor in whether or not a game is remembered, it is certainly not the only contributor. In many years, when I will remember my time with, say God of War, I will probably not be remembering the combat, but the puzzles and how they always seemed to be huge in scale, and really daunting.
When I'm going to be looking back on Flower, I will remember the emotional sensation I got from the game. And these have little to do with gameplay, and almost everything to do with the presentation, and I doubt the sensations would have been as powerful if the game had been crafted for the Wii.
And as WereKitten pointed out, Heavy Rain looks to be a massive undertaking, and having played Fahrenheit, I can safely say that having Heavy Rain on the PS3 will be much better for the game, than having it on the Wii.



Nah, it is just because they can make "game party" and get good sales. Why bother to put their best teams to work.



Rainbird said:
@ noname2000

I think WereKitten was pointing out, that many developers may not want to work with the limitations the Wii has compared to the PS360, and I agree with him, that you should certainly not look at the Wii as the best choice for development because of the controls methods it has or because of the userbase.

I believe you're right about WereKitten, and as I wrote near the end of my treatise, I have no objection to gamers feeling that way. But it goes with what Rol said in his original post. Let's quit dancing around the issue, and say just what those "limitations " are: the Wii can't do the same graphics as the HD consoles. And again, are killer graphics meant to serve the customers? The same customers who are speaking with their time and dollars to say that they're not as interested in graphics as they are in gameplay and controls? Obviously not. So who are they meant for? The only group left, really, is for the inner niche that are developers and the self-proclaimed hardcore that beget most developers nowadays. Isn't that precisely what Rol said?

Rainbird said:

And while gameplay is certainly a very decisive factor in whether or not a game is remembered, it is certainly not the only contributor. In many years, when I will remember my time with, say God of War, I will probably not be remembering the combat, but the puzzles and how they always seemed to be huge in scale, and really daunting.
When I'm going to be looking back on Flower, I will remember the emotional sensation I got from the game. And these have little to do with gameplay, and almost everything to do with the presentation, and I doubt the sensations would have been as powerful if the game had been crafted for the Wii.
And as WereKitten pointed out, Heavy Rain looks to be a massive undertaking, and having played Fahrenheit, I can safely say that having Heavy Rain on the PS3 will be much better for the game, than having it on the Wii.

As you wish. Time will tell if any of the games you've listed are remembered by more than a small group in, say, ten years, or if they're inevitably usurped by the next "latest and greatest." Personally, I'm skeptical, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I'd also like to point out at this point that the same God of War you're speaking of is a PlayStation 2 game, which implies that the power of HD isn't a part in making it so memorable. Heavy Rain is heavily dependent on its graphics: we'll see if the result is worth mentioning (Indigo Prophecy completely disintegrated a short ways in. I want Heavy Rain to fulfill its promises...but the developer hasn't exactly earned my trust yet). And I haven't played Flower yet, so I can't speak to it. What is it about being on an HD console that makes it so memorable? Honest question, mind you.

I'll also add that you appear to be interpreting "gameplay" a bit more narrowly than I am.



Another thing to note: regardless of profit or userbase, developers and publishers are free entities entitled to doing whatever they want. What if they're losing money? It's not your money. Wii fans who think that everyone should be forced to develop for nintendo really need to slow down. people have different motives for developing games and it's not about money for everyone. I'd voucher that for most devs, their salary is fixed regardless of the game's sales anyway so what if they're more in pursuit of a fanbase and critical acclaim from those who care enough to give it to them? What's it to you?

Last gen when the ps2 was running away with 70% marketshare, some devs like bethesda and lucas arts still released exclusive xbox games. Devs like to work with platforms they like and not everyone is miyamoto who can make games for others while having a true passion in music. Frankly, if I was a developer, I couldn't see myself being able to make a game I don't even have an interest in. It's just not possible for me.

That said, the whining about 3rd party offerings needs to slow down. Show love to the 3rd parties who actually made an effort on the wii by buying their games instead of buying only nintendo's games and claiming 3rd parties suck.



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

I think that bolded part in the OP may actually be closer to home than a lot of people would be comfortable with, but that is partially because it is generally assumed that developers and the people they develop for have very similar tastes.