360 sold 2 million consoles last holiday season. With a slightly lower price, and many big games, I think it can sell more than 2 million and the PS3.

Sqrl said: Sorry Killzone, as someone who thinks the PS3 is far from doomed I have to disagree with you here. Its not that price doesn't mean anything at X-mas, its that it means less. And I can't help but wonder how many people are really going to spend $500 on a console when for so many people that is all or most of their X-mas spending money. I think the big reason price means less at X-mas has to do with the messed up mentality that expensive gifts mean you care more. So if getting little Timmy a PS3 means someone else doesn't get a gift at all that could be a problem. But aside fromt hat I just don't see people going out in droves and dropping that kind of cash for a console, mainstream still percieves all consoles as toys, and when they probably have quite a few other people to shop for it will be hard to justify that kind of expenditure on what they percieve as a toy. This is why we will probably see a poor performance of the Elite, mediocre performance for the premium, and most of the sales for the 360 will go to the "Core".

 Hi, i highly doubt that. The Core is bad deal, and still will be at Christmas. As for the PS3, yes $500 is a big deal. But look at the last Christmas of the 360 had a pretty good one in America, and it had a price tag of $400 on it. Thats not much of a difference. By your argument the PS3 shouldn't sell right know. It has nearly no big games and costs more than $100 more as the 360. And it still sells, not good but not that bad compared to the 360 either. These $100+ will not matter that much at Christmas. I can see the PS3 outperform the 360 in Europe by 2:1 if the price drops 100 €, because it didn't had a Christmas yet in Europe, and for many early adopter thats the time they can buy such high price articles. That would give the PS3 a lead at Christmas WW this year (I expect the 360 to win in USA).

ssj12 said: I try not to count games that are on PC/Multiplatform as really console moving, Oblivion is a good game but sold better on PC then 360 + PS3 combined. Also there is the word YET there, is mass effect even out? Eternal Sonata might sell in Japan but idk about the US and Europe, and Lost Odyssey is made by mystwalker isnt it? if so and its as bad as Blue Dragon (sorry but DQ/FF/Golden Sun/Paper Mario and the other RPGs are 100% better) I dont see it doing much for the 360. Has any of those 360 exclusive RPGs been released in the US/Europe yet? dont think so. If Blue Dragon's effect in Japan is anything to show, it will sell maybe 1 million copies but mostly to people who already own 360s and barely expand it's overall console sales (Halo 3 will be the reason for 360 sales tripling). And.. whats Two Worlds? I never heard of it.. is it being released on the PC, i might look into it if it is.

Ok, I don't understand how you can call Folklore a good next gen rpg when it's at 65% on Gamerankings and Eurogamer gave it the same score that it did for Blue Dragon, a game that you call "bad". 

 

Just_Ben said: Hi, i highly doubt that. The Core is bad deal, and still will be at Christmas. As for the PS3, yes $500 is a big deal. But look at the last Christmas of the 360 had a pretty good one in America, and it had a price tag of $400 on it. Thats not much of a difference. By your argument the PS3 shouldn't sell right know. It has nearly no big games and costs more than $100 more as the 360. And it still sells, not good but not that bad compared to the 360 either. These $100+ will not matter that much at Christmas. I can see the PS3 outperform the 360 in Europe by 2:1 if the price drops 100 €, because it didn't had a Christmas yet in Europe, and for many early adopter thats the time they can buy such high price articles. That would give the PS3 a lead at Christmas WW this year (I expect the 360 to win in USA).

I never said the core was a good deal, but we are talking about uninformed consumers and when they know they need to get a 360 for Billy and one is much cheaper..well I think we know which one they will buy.

As for trying to translate my X-mas argument to right now, are you insane? How does my argument of people not wanting to spend all of their X-mas budget on one item translate to summer? There is a big difference between people spending this kind of cash on themselves and grandma/grandpa/mom/dad spending it at X-mas. Parents don't really buy there 23+ year old children consoles anymore so its parents buying for teens mostly.

As for the 360 last X-mas, I'm not sure why you got the idea that it was $400 last X-mas since the core was $299. I would consider $300 to be the upper limit of what most parents will spend at X-mas.

 

Ok lets keep this all in perspective now: I am not saying that neither console will sell this holiday, I am simply saying the price for the PS3 is still to high to see large numbers. The 360 on the other hand could see large numbers, but only on the back of the cheapest SKU available. So once again, yes they will sell, and they will see normal holiday boosts. But no they will not see spectacular blowout sales.

Edit: Let me just add that not only do I think price still matters at X-mas, I think it actually matters more but in a different way.  During X-mas the price matters not for a decision of "Do I buy?" but for the decision of "Which do I buy?".  This goes hand in hand with what MS is saying here actually as you will see potential PS3 buyers scoff at the price and get a 360/Wii and potential 360 buyers could very well do the same picking up a Wii...but I think it will be a much much more significant PS3 -> 360/Wii trend than 360 -> Wii trend. Once again, for the rabid fanboys I feel I have to point out that I am not saying this is going to happen in all or even most cases, but it WILL happen and it will happen enough to make a differnce in WW sales this Holiday.

WiteoutKing said: Killzone3 said: Legend11 said: Killzone3 said: http://www.gamernode.com/News/3878-Microsoft-says-it-will-take-PS3-sales-away-at-Christmas/index.html Sorry Cornelius, but even with a big software advantage you cant beat the PS3 and that advantage is quickly coming to an end. I'am betting MR C is wrong, you ? I'll probably feel really sorry for the PS3 this Christmas because it's obvious that it's going to be completely owned in North America and very likely in the UK as well. As for Japan, Sony is extremely lucky that the 360 isn't a contender there otherwise the gap between the PS3 and the 360 would be growing at an alarming rate. Completely owned lol what world do you live in ? PS brand is to strong to get owned by xbox on xmas. We will see 360 get burned world wide. The gap will be droping at an alarming rate, 360 best market is where its 3rd in sales aint it.     I'm sorry, but this argument is getting old. If the PS3 thrives so well on brandname, why is it still struggling to keep up? And I will be absolutely SHOCKED if the PSP outsells the DS, leo.  Only two weeks in this entire generation has the PSP outsold the DS.

I really think it will happen in the U.S and maybe japan, europe very likely. Why is it even possible? Yes it is. The new model in japan is already selling out in pre orders. Also FF7 is THE most popular, and THE best selling FF game in japan. That thing bundled with the new psp, and that psp has a limited edition FF 7 layout, it will sellout very fast. Why in europe? If all those products sony announced in leipzig is true to come, Id rather have a psp than a cell phone that would make it the best portable device made yet(includes ipods,zunes,iphone,gaming etc..). As for the U.S, the new  D vder model will sell out (sadly I wont be able to get one..)

 

Sqrl said: I never said the core was a good deal, but we are talking about uninformed consumers and when they know they need to get a 360 for Billy and one is much cheaper..well I think we know which one they will buy.

Sorry, the current price difference between core and premium in the US is 70$? And you need a memory card? thats not that big of a price difference. AND you seem not to know kids. They tell their parents exactly what they want. Especialy in that age (14+). Don't think the box will be bought for many kids under that age, if you consider the games for it. And if so, parents will ask the clerk and he will tell them to buy the premium.

 

Sqrl said: As for trying to translate my X-mas argument to right now, are you insane? How does my argument of people not wanting to spend all of their X-mas budget on one item translate to summer? There is a big difference between people spending this kind of cash on themselves and grandma/grandpa/mom/dad spending it at X-mas. Parents don't really buy there 23+ year old children consoles anymore so its parents buying for teens mostly.

And you think there will be no one, who will buy themselves a Christmas gift? Your argument is only true for the basic parent. But there are people who uses their Christmas bonus to buy themselves something they want!

Sqrl said: As for the 360 last X-mas, I'm not sure why you got the idea that it was $400 last X-mas since the core was $299. I would consider $300 to be the upper limit of what most parents will spend at X-mas.

And how good sold the core? As far as i understood poorly if you compare it with the premium.

Sqrl said: Ok lets keep this all in perspective now: I am not saying that neither console will sell this holiday, I am simply saying the price for the PS3 is still to high to see large numbers. The 360 on the other hand could see large numbers, but only on the back of the cheapest SKU available. So once again, yes they will sell, and they will see normal holiday boosts. But no they will not see spectacular blowout sales.

My argument is that, the PS3 hadn't had a Christmas in Europe, yet. And that people use their chrisms bonus for themselves. It is the only time of the year most people can afford to buy such a high price article. And the PS3 has at least some games by the time, and the brand name of the PS3 is much stronger than that of the 360. I know, a lot of people say, amazon don't count. But looking at amazon.de the price drop of the 360 seems to didn't help that much in Germany. Price is only one of a lot of things.

Sqrl said: Edit: Let me just add that not only do I think price still matters at X-mas, I think it actually matters more but in a different way. During X-mas the price matters not for a decision of "Do I buy?" but for the decision of "Which do I buy?". This goes hand in hand with what MS is saying here actually as you will see potential PS3 buyers scoff at the price and get a 360/Wii and potential 360 buyers could very well do the same picking up a Wii...but I think it will be a much much more significant PS3 -> 360/Wii trend than 360 -> Wii trend. Once again, for the rabid fanboys I feel I have to point out that I am not saying this is going to happen in all or even most cases, but it WILL happen and it will happen enough to make a differnce in WW sales this Holiday.

So know I'm not called a Nintendo fanboy, I'm called a Sony fanboy? Nice! I'm still saying the PS3 will win in Europe against the 360 this holiday season, if there is a price drop before than by 2:1 (Nov+Dec).

I will take know a wild guess. You are coming from America? The way i see it, the discussion between those who are behind the 360 and those who are behind the PS3 is also mainly a discussion between Americans and Europeans here on the board. So lets just take a step back and think about that. This pattern should tell everybody something. The brand name PS is still strong in Europe. So strong that many think the PS3 can pull it. So why not say, the 360 will win in US and the PS3 in Europe?

And please, don't call me a fanboy, I'm laying down an argument.

And by the way, quoting sucks in this forum!

Just_Ben said: Sqrl said: I never said the core was a good deal, but we are talking about uninformed consumers and when they know they need to get a 360 for Billy and one is much cheaper..well I think we know which one they will buy. Sorry, the current price difference between core and premium in the US is 70$? And you need a memory card? thats not that big of a price difference. AND you seem not to know kids. They tell their parents exactly what they want. Especialy in that age (14+). Don't think the box will be bought for many kids under that age, if you consider the games for it. And if so, parents will ask the clerk and he will tell them to buy the premium.

A price difference of $70 is a big deal, and during the holiday rush of buying presents plenty of parents will not even bother to ask a clerk. Kids do tell their parents precisely what they want in most cases, this I completely agree with.  But I think it is you who is out of touch with this dynamic as parents don't always get exactly what is requested.  When you are in a rush, trying to manage your holiday cash, and already view the console as just a toy and a waste of money the insistance and emphasis your child placed on how important it is can quickly be forgotten.

With that said, if you read my post carefully I never said the premium wasn't going to sell...this is why I felt I had to mention it several times and yet you still act as if I was implying that it wouldn't sell well.  I never said it wouldn't. The premium will sell just fine!

 

Just_Ben said: Sqrl said: As for trying to translate my X-mas argument to right now, are you insane? How does my argument of people not wanting to spend all of their X-mas budget on one item translate to summer? There is a big difference between people spending this kind of cash on themselves and grandma/grandpa/mom/dad spending it at X-mas. Parents don't really buy there 23+ year old children consoles anymore so its parents buying for teens mostly.  And you think there will be no one, who will buy themselves a Christmas gift? Your argument is only true for the basic parent. But there are people who uses their Christmas bonus to buy themselves something they want!

It's true people buy themselves stuff with X-mas bonuses, but the number of parents buying consoles for kids far outweighs the personal purchases.  Very few people buy themselves things for X-mas, and even less spend $500 when they need to purchase gifts for family members still.

I have to be honest in saying this argument seems to be grasping at straws.  Are you trying to tell me that from a WW sales perspective there is going to be a meaningful number of people who are going to buy themselves a PS3 for X-mas?  There will be people who do this, I don't doubt that.  But this is just background noise compared to the PS3s that will be purchased for others.  People need to realize that we don't need to account for every niche consumer in all of the millions of scenarios people could find themselves in.  They just don't add up to anything meaningful and this niche is no different. 

Basically when I see this argument I see you saying "Well I see your widespread broadly sweeping and universal consumer and I counter it with my insignificant niche consumer.".  I'm honestly not trying to be insulting but that is what I got out of your argument. 

Just_Ben said: Sqrl said: As for the 360 last X-mas, I'm not sure why you got the idea that it was $400 last X-mas since the core was $299. I would consider $300 to be the upper limit of what most parents will spend at X-mas.   And how good sold the core? As far as i understood poorly if you compare it with the premium.

Early adopters are always far more likely to buy the better equiped versions, so I am not really sure how the premium doing well up to this point means a whole lot in reference to the uninformed X-mas consumer.  I don't doubt that overall the premium is and will do better, but the core will very likely see strong sales on its price alone this holiday.  $70 is a big deal at X-mas, you can buy gifts for 3 people on $70.

 

Just_Ben said: Sqrl said: Ok lets keep this all in perspective now: I am not saying that neither console will sell this holiday, I am simply saying the price for the PS3 is still to high to see large numbers. The 360 on the other hand could see large numbers, but only on the back of the cheapest SKU available. So once again, yes they will sell, and they will see normal holiday boosts. But no they will not see spectacular blowout sales.   My argument is that, the PS3 hadn't had a Christmas in Europe, yet. And that people use their chrisms bonus for themselves. It is the only time of the year most people can afford to buy such a high price article. And the PS3 has at least some games by the time, and the brand name of the PS3 is much stronger than that of the 360. I know, a lot of people say, amazon don't count. But looking at amazon.de the price drop of the 360 seems to didn't help that much in Germany. Price is only one of a lot of things.

For the part I bolded, see my first responce to that argument. I won't go into again, as I think I addressed it pretty well above.

For the rest of this quote:  First of all I am not sure how the PS3 not having had a X-mas in the "EU/Others" regions yet really effects or fits into this discussion of consoles losing sales to other consoles.  It would fit into a sales performance discussion just fine, but it makes no difference here.  Secondly, when it comes to the PS3 having a better brand image I would agree for the EU.  But this discussion isn't just about the EU, despite your attempts to make it seem that way.  

Now I have to ask you, how do you measure the brand if not by sales?  Looking at the sales if the PS3 truly has such a strong brand then why is it struggling in sales?  If it is a strong brand and there is so much faith in it then why aren't there games and why is it in a software drought?  You can't have it both ways.  The fact is that right now brand loyalty is out the window for Sony.  All but the most hardcore fanboys see the problems and are hedging their bets.  If the Brand was strong then gamers would be buying the console regardless of price and developers would be making tons of games for it regardless of install base.  The brand is NOT strong on a WW basis.  People need to accept this, you can't use the same crutch forever folks.

Just_Ben said:   Sqrl said: Edit: Let me just add that not only do I think price still matters at X-mas, I think it actually matters more but in a different way. During X-mas the price matters not for a decision of "Do I buy?" but for the decision of "Which do I buy?". This goes hand in hand with what MS is saying here actually as you will see potential PS3 buyers scoff at the price and get a 360/Wii and potential 360 buyers could very well do the same picking up a Wii...but I think it will be a much much more significant PS3 -> 360/Wii trend than 360 -> Wii trend. Once again, for the rabid fanboys I feel I have to point out that I am not saying this is going to happen in all or even most cases, but it WILL happen and it will happen enough to make a differnce in WW sales this Holiday.    So know I'm not called a Nintendo fanboy, I'm called a Sony fanboy? Nice! I'm still saying the PS3 will win in Europe against the 360 this holiday season, if there is a price drop before than by 2:1 (Nov+Dec).

I actually didn't call you a fanboy but you did paint yourself as one. Allow me to explain...  I was making the bolded comment to prevent people from jumping on the statement. By stating this I was trying to preempt an argument that was pointless.  The comment applied to anyone who was thinking of responding with the argument it was refuting.  You responded with the argument, not much I can do about that. And actually if you look at the part in red, "for the rabid fanboys", I was clearly addressing it away from you.

But I will apologise if I insulted you, it was not my intention. I am here for a debate not for a flamefest. The comment was intended only to bring clarity to what I was saying.

 

Just_Ben said:   I will take know a wild guess. You are coming from America? The way i see it, the discussion between those who are behind the 360 and those who are behind the PS3 is also mainly a discussion between Americans and Europeans here on the board. So lets just take a step back and think about that. This pattern should tell everybody something. The brand name PS is still strong in Europe. So strong that many think the PS3 can pull it. So why not say, the 360 will win in US and the PS3 in Europe?

I will take a wild guess.  You are coming from the EU?    But to answer your question yes I live in the US. The only problem I have with your logic here is that it neglects the existance of the Wii.  You cannot discount it just because it doesn't fit into the dicussion neatly.  The Wii scrambles things up quite a bit and I think its low price and huge sales in all markets sort of proves that it has the biggest consumer confidense right now.

Just_Ben said: And please, don't call me a fanboy, I'm laying down an argument. And by the way, quoting sucks in this forum!

See above for the fanboy thing.  And I completely agree about the quoting!

Alexie Di Onie said: THe PS3, though pretty, has nothing this holiday season, no MGS4, no GTA4, there are no HUGE names for PS3, thats the facts.

 they dont need established franchises to make sales. New titles are always a good thing. Uncharted is a great example because its made by Naughty Dog which means it will be good, they never have made a unsuccessful franchise. 

New IP against strong established like Mario, Smash Brothers or Halo...

Who will win ?

ssj12 said: Alexie Di Onie said: THe PS3, though pretty, has nothing this holiday season, no MGS4, no GTA4, there are no HUGE names for PS3, thats the facts. they dont need established franchises to make sales. New titles are always a good thing. Uncharted is a great example because its made by Naughty Dog which means it will be good, they never have made a unsuccessful franchise.

 Clearly Sony does need established franchises to make sales.  These new IPs are not pushing hardware sales.