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@jammy

I see you finally got my point.



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theRepublic said:
@jammy

I see you finally got my point.

 I presume I always had it, but still don't have a clue what it actually is as you seem to suck as presenting whatever your point was.

 Is it the sustainability thing? I dunno *shrug*.



But game budgets are still far away from movie budgets.

The average Hollywood big budget movie costs $150 million + marketing, while your average HD big budget game costs only ~$30-40 million. And yet those $150 million are all used to produce just 2 hours of a non-interactive stream of pictures,

I want to see game budgets match the ones of Spiderman and Pirates of the Caribbean (+$200 million) - which would allow a team of 500 people work on a game for 4 years.

That would be one hell of a game.



Pristine20 said:

Thats what competition does, 360 already pushed the set the bar high when it launched first and sony didn't have anything particularly innovative so they pusher it further. Nintendo decided to gamble elsewhere simply because they couldn't afford the stakes M$ and sony set considering their performance in the last 2 console gens of their only industry.

Frankly, I think it was the original xbox that started the insane tech push but I don't blame M$ for taking that route. They did what they had to do to get their foot in the door. It may be out of control now but we'll see how things play out. Ps3 and 360 and even the wii may be around much longer than we all expect.

I don't think so - they decided to take the path they did, simply because following the PS3/360 route didn't pay off. I'm sure Iwata said Nintendo has the money to make an HD console and compete if they wanted to (their cash reserves are huge) - but they didn't, simply because it doesn't make any sense to.

Also, MS was definitely not what started the tech push. That began much, much earlier. I mean, when Sega's Mega Drive started to pick up momentum on the NES, Nintendo was forced to up the graphics on their console. That may not have been where it started, but it definitely has been a tech push ever since. You might argue MS took it too far, but the same can be said about Sony, really.

I also find your last comment interesting, "even the Wii." I think many of us here (including me) think the Wii is destined to last the longest, for a number of reasons. That's for another thread, though...


@Slimebeast:

I want to see game budgets match the ones of Spiderman and Pirates of the Caribbean (+$200 million) - which would allow a team of 500 people work on a game for 4 years.

True, game budgets don't reach that level. However, videogames also only reach a fraction of the audience movies do. When you look at Dark Knight's revenue - $1bil, it means at least 150mil tickets (not sure about the pricing) were sold. Games don't come anywhere close. Remember Dark Knight's opening week? 11.8 million DVD's, 1.7 million Blu-rays. That first week already puts it over GTAIV LTD. There are many people that don't play videogames, but very few that don't watch movies.

 

Oh, lastly, wanted to say. Thanks for the links, celine, awesome reads.



jammy2211 said:
theRepublic said:
@jammy

I see you finally got my point.

 I presume I always had it, but still don't have a clue what it actually is as you seem to suck as presenting whatever your point was.

 Is it the sustainability thing? I dunno *shrug*.

It is that the problem is vastly worse on the HD consoles.  If you understand that, why are you arguing that it is such a problem for the Wii?



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jammy2211 said:

 As a quick sidenote, what the Wii is doing is much healthier as although costs will rise the market is growing with them. It is much more sustainable, I don't disagree with any of that. Just as we've always seen, and is the mentality of the industry, games will still be more and more about bigger budgets (albeit more on the marketing side) and the smaller teams will be cut out.

 Good luck with the quoting lol.

 

Yeah I need luck with the quoting

 

Like I explained "the bigger and badder" is a natural process ( not exclusive to the gaming industry ).

 

But the problem isn't the existence of big project for core gamers like Super Mario Galaxy.

IMHO the problem is platforms that only offer Hollywood style poductions because that is their philosophy ( above all when 3D graphic has become good enough for many people  with PS2/Xbox/GC ).

Wii and DS offers opportunities also for small/mid size publishers because  their main  focus isn't on graphic. Blockbuster production values aren't a  requirement because those systems attract a huge variety of consumers some of which don't mind about high production values.

 

About the marketing matter , well, if I must bet who between two games had more marketing budget knowing only that one had a far more high development budget than the other then my answer will be surely on the costly one because more you invest, more you try  to assure that your investment won't be burn out

However talking about small company that had an unexpected smashing success on handheld and home Nintendo systems  I always like to cite Cooking Mama.

That game was published by two small companies like Majesco ( on the verge of bankruptcy) and 505 Games in the west.

Well I don't remember initially a great marketing push by Majesco or 505 Games however when become apparent that the game was selling healty month in month out those company spend the money earned to promote more heavily CM and the game ultimately become a million seller.

Sure a game like Phantom Hourglass from Big Nintendo sold more but I don't think that matter to Majesco ( recenty they started to get profits again ). 

 

What advantages are there in using retailers? Well if  there weren't then nobody would use them

More seriously "packaged games have a number of advantages, from the guarantee of a certain amount of sales volume to the firmly established buying habits and infrastructure that I think should be preserved in the future."

"[...]the consumer will want an experience that’s best delivered through physical goods, simply because of the memory size required. There will always be those opportunities for big, in-depth games on retail products."

 

Keep in mind that I don't think one distribution is better than the other one, in my opinion  they are both good but for different things. 

 

Ultimately a good echosystem is one where customers, retailers and producers have a huge range of diversity, with their own aims and needs.

Core consumers and non-core consumers are both needed , sometimes for different products.

Indie deveopers like 2DBoys, small publishers like Marvelous and big companies like Nintendo must have the opportunity to get their profits ( if they can ) aiming at what they are good to. 

Things goes wrong when this balance is off.

 



 “In the entertainment business, there are only heaven and hell, and nothing in between and as soon as our customers bore of our products, we will crash.”  Hiroshi Yamauchi

TAG:  Like a Yamauchi pimp slap delivered by Il Maelstrom; serving it up with style.

Celine - Microsoft and Sony do have very viable ways of getting Indie & smaller studios in the mix, and allow them to be profitable.

They're called 'Downloadable titles'.

Kind of like Braid, which cost a whopping $300,000 to make and has sold over $3 million in revenue.

The ways to publish niche/indie titles still exists, even on HD consoles. Given how rampant the Castle Crashers crowd has been (#1 DL game of 2008. 500,000+ copies sold), the titles aren't selling too poorly, either.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Celine - Microsoft and Sony do have very viable ways of getting Indie & smaller studios in the mix, and allow them to be profitable.

They're called 'Downloadable titles'.

Kind of like Braid, which cost a whopping $300,000 to make and has sold over $3 million in revenue.

The ways to publish niche/indie titles still exists, even on HD consoles. Given how rampant the Castle Crashers crowd has been (#1 DL game of 2008. 500,000+ copies sold), the titles aren't selling too poorly, either.

 

WiiWare, PSN and XBox Live Arcade are excellent platforms for tiny developers but (on their own) are not enough to really produce a healthy industry ...

If we look at game development currently and compare it to the size of development teams from generations past we'd have:

  • WiiWare, PSN and XBox Live Arcade are similar to Atari, NES and SNES
  • Nintendo DS and PSP are similar to the SNES and N64
  • Wii is similar to the PS2, XBox and Gamecube
  • The PS3 and XBox 360 are a whole new scale of project

Realistically, no developer can make the jump from developing a game for the Nintendo DS/PSP to making a game for the PS3 or XBox 360 ... What this means is there is a massive hole in the industry that the Wii has filled.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but developing a game for the Xbox 360 costs the same amount of money as a Nintendo Wii game. However, since the X360 has far more power available, developers spend more money to use it.

Or am I mistaken? If this is the case, it's the developers fault as opposed to the Wii filling a gap. It's not like games such as the Lego series, Beautiful Katamari, Rock Band, Guitar Hero, or others had incredible budgets on the 360.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but developing a game for the Xbox 360 costs the same amount of money as a Nintendo Wii game. However, since the X360 has far more power available, developers spend more money to use it.

Or am I mistaken? If this is the case, it's the developers fault as opposed to the Wii filling a gap. It's not like games such as the Lego series, Beautiful Katamari, Rock Band, Guitar Hero, or others had incredible budgets on the 360.

Yes and no,

A game like The Conduit could be released for the XBox 360 but I'm pretty sure it would have a difficult time selling that many copies because of its simple visuals unless it was a budget priced game. I could be wrong, but I don't think any publisher would be willing to take on the risk of a $5 to $10 Million game if they're forced to sell it for $20 to $30, with (roughly) $10 revenue per copy.