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Final-Fan on 18 January 2009
super_etecoon said:
rofl...because Mr.Spock deleted his account all the tallies are gone for this thread.

Good riddance.

How do you even DO that?

[edit:  Never mind, I forgot what his name was already and thought it was literally Mr.Spock.  But that reminds me of something...]



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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mrstickball on 18 January 2009
Final-Fan said:
I have to side against you on this akuma587 in that the abortion question depends on at what point the fetus can be considered a person.

mrstickball, I find it ridiculous that you attempt to discredit an opposing argument by pointing out that some of the people giving it are activists, and then give a source like that one to justify your own position. And that's leaving aside the fact that it was ad hominem in the first place.

Final, then what are you supposed to do when those performing the 'research' obviously have a bias, as they involve themselves by performing abortions? I find it a hard argument to swallow to be true (that babies do not feel pain until ~25 weeks like the article states) when those putting forth the research perform abortions themselves. Especially given the fact that a large community of researchers put that date much earlier.

 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Final-Fan on 18 January 2009
mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:
I have to side against you on this akuma587 in that the abortion question depends on at what point the fetus can be considered a person.

mrstickball, I find it ridiculous that you attempt to discredit an opposing argument by pointing out that some of the people giving it are activists, and then give a source like that one to justify your own position. And that's leaving aside the fact that it was ad hominem in the first place.
Final, then what are you supposed to do when those performing the 'research' obviously have a bias, as they involve themselves by performing abortions? I find it a hard argument to swallow to be true (that babies do not feel pain until ~25 weeks like the article states) when those putting forth the research perform abortions themselves. Especially given the fact that a large community of researchers put that date much earlier.

A large community of anti-abortion activists, you mean, which was my point.  You said, "that info is from people who are biased, look at this info from biased people instead!"



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

GamingChartzFTW on 18 January 2009

I'm Pro Choice (I respect women)

Women should decide themselves.



mrstickball on 18 January 2009
Final-Fan said:
mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:
I have to side against you on this akuma587 in that the abortion question depends on at what point the fetus can be considered a person.

mrstickball, I find it ridiculous that you attempt to discredit an opposing argument by pointing out that some of the people giving it are activists, and then give a source like that one to justify your own position. And that's leaving aside the fact that it was ad hominem in the first place.
Final, then what are you supposed to do when those performing the 'research' obviously have a bias, as they involve themselves by performing abortions? I find it a hard argument to swallow to be true (that babies do not feel pain until ~25 weeks like the article states) when those putting forth the research perform abortions themselves. Especially given the fact that a large community of researchers put that date much earlier.

A large community of anti-abortion activists, you mean, which was my point.  You said, "that info is from people who are biased, look at this info from biased people instead!"

Here's the argument though: His sources (which are run by activists and abortionists) say babies feel pain at 30 weeks. My sources say 8 weeks. Lets discredit both arguments and go with the nominal, which puts it at 20 weeks. That's still against his argument that abortions didn't take place after 23 weeks. Not only that, it assumes that no further research would validate that it's earlier - which could always be the case.

 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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Final-Fan on 18 January 2009
mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:
mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:
I have to side against you on this akuma587 in that the abortion question depends on at what point the fetus can be considered a person.

mrstickball, I find it ridiculous that you attempt to discredit an opposing argument by pointing out that some of the people giving it are activists, and then give a source like that one to justify your own position. And that's leaving aside the fact that it was ad hominem in the first place.
Final, then what are you supposed to do when those performing the 'research' obviously have a bias, as they involve themselves by performing abortions? I find it a hard argument to swallow to be true (that babies do not feel pain until ~25 weeks like the article states) when those putting forth the research perform abortions themselves. Especially given the fact that a large community of researchers put that date much earlier.
A large community of anti-abortion activists, you mean, which was my point.  You said, "that info is from people who are biased, look at this info from biased people instead!"
Here's the argument though: His sources (which are run by activists and abortionists) say babies feel pain at 30 weeks. My sources say 8 weeks. Lets discredit both arguments and go with the nominal, which puts it at 20 weeks. That's still against his argument that abortions didn't take place after 23 weeks. Not only that, it assumes that no further research would validate that it's earlier - which could always be the case.

I forget where this "nominal" is coming from -- please remind me. 

Also, Wikipedia sez:  "There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain."  Their source.  (Pages 215-216.)  Unless this source is also written by people closely allied with abortion activists?  Serious question, I threw their names into google but didn't find much. 

So 26 weeks seems like a reasonable floor for the possibility of real pain sensation; and it's later than 23 weeks.  The abortion activists do seem to have fudged their figure by equating detectable with extant, but that's it. 

This assumes, of course, that later research doesn't show that perception is not truly established until a later stage. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Snake612 on 18 January 2009

@The_vagabond_7, how would you feel if you were one of those being killed.

I am pro life.



TO GOD BE THE GLORY

ion-storm on 18 January 2009

Pro choice! Eveyone having sex should know where the nearest clinic is in case they forget the love punch after the act! Can we get the limit on abortion raised to say 20 years after birth?! I see far too many people in this country who deserve a good aborting.



Yes

Hawkeye on 18 January 2009

Its a complicated issue... abortion is actually good for our society in terms of economic efficiency (pre-emptive execution of high risk criminals) but its also morally wrong. I don't know.I'd like to think I'm pro-life though.



Hawkeye on 18 January 2009
MontanaHatchet said:

I like how the thread is beginning to erupt into big debate despite the thread creator saying:

"Simply post to say whether you're Pro Choice or Pro Life"

It's like people can't say their position without giving their OH SO IMPORTANT opinion. Ahh, nevermind me.

 

Some people like to debate.