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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Why Core Gamers are disappointed with Nintendo

BrainBoxLtd said:
noname2200 said:

Honestly I just read Malstrom's blip here as the annoying "Nintendo should make games I like because I know better," mantra. Better written and the games he wants differ greatly from people who usually say this, but that's how I feel.

The biggest tip off for me feeling this is way is"Miyamoto’s perspective is to remove all and any constraints in the Core titles. I do think this is the wrong way to go about it. He should just return to the Mario and Zelda roots."

Like you said, what are these roots he mentions? He says the NES Mario and Zelda are built on arcade gameplay. Mario I have no argument against, but Zelda? Even now, it's a very long complicated game with puzzles, numerous items, with numerous functions. If you were to play a game like that in an arcade you'd likely get tired, and maybe even bored. It's combat, all though well made, greatly pails in comparison with combat of classic arcade titles of the time.

This fracture he mentions also seems deliberately deceptive. There is indeed a fracture amongst us "core" gamers with the whole 2D and 3D thing. But I'm going to guess for most regular people the fractures exists in most 3D games were more complicated then their 2D counterparts. From Super Mario World to Super Mario 64 you went from a control pad and a few buttons to mostly run, jump, and use power-ups to a control stick, a c-pad, shoulder buttons, and a few buttons to run, jump, long jump, backflip, side somersault, swim underwater, attack, align and reposition the camera, and so on.

It's probably one reason why shooters are doing so well now, the fundamental gameplay hasn't changed much since the early DOOM days, if anything it was made easier since the earliest shooters usually had a ton of keys, locks, and switches to contend with in addition to killing everything you run into. Light gun games also didn't suffer from being 3D as well since they're gameplay remained exactly the same.

New Super Mario Bros. didn't just sell because it was throwback to the original Mario, it's because it was the first new Mario in a long time to go back to the simple run and jump set-up. All though Galaxy had an added mode where someone else could play a simple role, the main gameplay was still rooted in the more complex 3D's Marios.

I definitely think Miyamoto has the right idea in breaking down control barriers. Look at Mario Kart on the Wii. That Wheel was included so that people could immediately understand how you play the game, like an old arcade racing cabinet with a steering wheel jutting out of it. According to this site's sales, Mario Kart Wii is just a hair from passing  Mario Kart DS in sales, despite being on the market for a shorter period of time and the DS having around double the Wii's install base.

Look at the Zelda series sales according to VGChartz. Ocarina is the current king in sales, then the original NES Zelda, despite the install base differences between NES and the N64. Twilight Princess has sold more then Phantom Hourglass, again despite the massive difference in install bases. Link to the Past sold only slightly more then Windwaker. The Zelda series already had relatively complicated gameplay even in the NES days, the complications added in the 3D era were comparable to the advantages it provided in already complex game.

Phantom Hourglass certainly went back to the top-down 2D perspective of the old Zelda’s, but it’s only slightly easier to play then say Twilight Princess. Also Phantom Hourglass may be easier to control, but it’s a generally more difficult and frustrating game because of the complicated timed puzzles in the Ocean King’s lair that have to be constantly repeated. Twilight Princess is probably a more accessible game for most people.

The more accessible something is, the more people can access it, and likely buy it. That’s why there’s not a lot of demand for a return to text only based games, adding graphics made them more accessible by seeing what you may interact with, instead of constantly typing look around and guess onward. Then they added the ability to skip the text entry and just point and click on the graphics with your mouse, and we got point and click adventures. Which we do get some occasional demand for a return of, and have seen some return of on the DS.

By nature, a lot of 2D games are more accessible then a lot of 3D games, but it’s certainly not the rule. Honestly I think Malstrom should stick to the business end of things. The fact he’s basing his theory on the “Core” gamers claiming Nintendo’s games are declining in quality is silly. This is the same “core” group he’s constantly lambasted and painted as a vocal minority, now they’re suddenly on to something? When I read he wants a return to Mario and Zelda’s roots, I just think he wants a return to the Zelda’s and Mario’s he simply likes best, and wrote an elaborate excuse to why he should get his way.

Excellent post, and I agree with every bit of it, most especially the conclusion. I've suspected the same thing myself for a while, actually, although I'm willing to give Malstrom (and everyone else) a pass for wanting games to appeal more to them personally. But I strongly suspect you're on the money about the need for accessibility, rather than just 2D vs. 3D, being the key factor.

The problem that Nintendo (and every other company out there) faces is in keeping things fresh for those of us who've been playing for years, while leaving things accessible enough for new gamers to play too. I think they've been handling that pretty well for many of their titles (Mario Kart is an excellent example), but I can't deny that 3D does increase the complexity for some genres. They'll have to tow the line between these two hazards.

Thankfully, I don't have to figure out how to do that.



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Trying to argue that nintendo was losing core gamers before Wii on VGChartz boards is like having a pissing match with a skunk. You can't win...



Shanobi said:
liquidninja said:

@all those disagreeing with Malstrom.

I think Nintendo's decline in sales of their consoles before the Wii partly shows that they were losing Core Customers. It was only when they attracted new customers that they started selling better than their previous consoles.

 

See, I believe their lower sales in the "hardcore" market, is due to the competition showing more boobs, and blood.

 

People are simple. Why bother with a game like Metroid Prime, which will make you think, when you can drive around for hours in GTA banging hookers and then running them over? There's a reason summer blockbuster movies and porn do so well, and it's not for their attention to craft.

Different tastes and preferences. I'd argue that driving over hookers is simple fun just as jumping around in a Mario game is. To be honest, deeper gaming experiences have done a lot better on HD platforms so I don't know where you're getting this idea from.



That would be right, except that its the owners of the PS360 that complain about the lack of core games on the Wii.

Us Wii gamers are too busy playing core games to complain



Sean has got it right..again it explains my growing disinterest in these BIG BUDGET Nintendo games

I have tons of more fun with niche and funny games now



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scottie said:
That would be right, except that its the owners of the PS360 that complain about the lack of core games on the Wii.

Us Wii gamers are too busy playing core games to complain

Agreed.  Nintendo has released many great core games for the Wii and it's only been out little over 2 years.  I say keep up the good work!    

 



Proud member of the Mega Mario Movement

 

Warrior of Light

I just feel like pointing out that Zelda doesn't follow a declining sales pattern generally attributed to console Mario games. Twilight Princess is on its way to outselling every other game in the series, except for Ocarina of Time.

I have nothing of substance to contribute.



I consider myself a "core gamer" and I was never dissapointed with Nintendo. But I do agree with Maelstrom.

The new mario and zeldas are great. No doubt. But had attracted new people? No. Why? because it focused in "make mario fly" or "make link turn in a wolf" than making people have fun. Let's face it: Twilight Princess is a great game. But it was nothing but an "ocarina reloaded".

The truth is that many Nintendo core gamers, still love Nintendo but they don't "love" the new core games nintendo delivered. Many still think that "link to the past" was much better than the 3D ones and that "Super Mario Bros 3" is much better than "Mario 64". Yeah is a matter of tastes, but the truth is that the old games were more gamer oriented while the new ones are more "icon oriented".

and anyone who says that Nintendo hasn't lost core gamers should realize the sad truth. If it wasn't the case, then the Gamecube could have been better than the rest of the consoles out there because it was more aimed to the core base.

I like how Nintendo is changing the rules. I hope that the new mario and zelda refresh the franchises and takes them out of the hole they are.



Arius Dion said:
Two things:

1) I'm one of those ppl that don't believe in the buzz words casual or hardcore (or core for that matter)

2) I'm a gamer and have not been disappointed in Nintendo's franchises so far this gen.

 

 

^

 

 

@buffalo: nintendo hasn't lost core gamers. If they had, something would tell me that SMG/SSBB/Zelda etc. wouldn't all be sitting past the 5 million mark.



 Twilightman on Gametrailers

Khuutra said:
I just feel like pointing out that Zelda doesn't follow a declining sales pattern generally attributed to console Mario games. Twilight Princess is on its way to outselling every other game in the series, except for Ocarina of Time.

I have nothing of substance to contribute.

Quite the contrary, that little nugget of information serves to partially refute Malstrom's claims.

xcot said:

 

@buffalo: nintendo hasn't lost core gamers. If they had, something would tell me that SMG/SSBB/Zelda etc. wouldn't all be sitting past the 5 million mark.

Not to trod on bobbuffalo's toes here, but I don't believe he was saying that the core gamers have all gone away. What he is pointing out is that they don't seem to be as abundant as before, judging from the sales of some games. Yet this doesn't seem to hold true for all titles. As Khuutra points out, Zelda's been up-and-down for a while, and Smash Bros. sales seem to increase as the series progresses.

Nontheless, until recently many Nintendo titles (Mario, Mario Kart, Donkey Kong, F-Zero, etc.) seem to be selling less than their predecessors. I'm not sold on Malstrom's explanation of why, though.