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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Ubisoft Dev: PS3 Can't Handle AI as well as the 360

omgwtfbbq on 15 August 2007
Final-Fan said:

Well omgwtfbbq I have to say that you've easily convinced me (with the earlier post) that the PS3 is a lot better at physics and graphics than it is at AI. However, I am not convinced that the weakness is as great as you claim -- that (1) the PPE will be bogged down quite a bit by having to juggle the SPEs and (2) the disadvantage of the Cell's single PPE will outweigh the advantage of its ability to dump graphics/physics processing onto the many SPEs, as compared to the Xenon in the 360.

Point 2 especially is one that I think remains to be definitively demonstrated one way or the other. Obviously a game focusing on extremely sophisticated AI but with minimal graphics would be much better off on the 360, but I don't think that's a likely portrait of future 360/PS3 games.

Now I should say that I am not a person with technical knowledge of processors at this level of detail, and if I have overlooked a fact which is blindingly obvious to you then I apologize, but please don't discount me entirely due to that.

I would welcome being proven wrong, in detail, with brutal honesty -- because then I would know more than I do now.

Erm, you do realise that the graphics is handled by the GPU right? The GPU in the Xbox is much more capable than the Cell for handling graphics.

As for a game that requires top physics, top graphics, AND great AI, you have to remember that the Xbox360 is still a 3 core system. While the GPU can handle the graphics, there are still three cores to split between physics and AI, as opposed to the PS3 where the PPE has to handle the AI as well as other things.

I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could find a situation where the PS3's SPUs will give it enough of an advantage to overcome not having an entire core dedicated to AI, but in almost every case you'll find the Xbox360 will be better. 

 



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omgwtfbbq on 15 August 2007
MikeB said:
@ thermal7

What do you base this on? Do you know the developers? Do they have a history of incompetence? How do you know the Cell processor is "far more powerful than the XBox 360's Xenon processor for calculating AI"?


I have been following Cell development for many years now. I have been to IBM presentations and someone I know well has written many in-depth articles on the Cell processor.

I know far less about the Xenon, but IBM technical specialists made it clear to me the Cell as used by the PS3 is more than twice as powerful as compared to the Xenon. Note that IBM designed both chips.

The Cell provides a far more interesting design IMO (and it should considering there has been far more R&D invested in the Cell than for the Xenon). It's not just an ordinary multi-core CPU, it's more like having many independently operating full co-processors, each with their own super fast local memory. IMO the design provides somewhat an Amiga-like philosophy, like the Amiga custom chips drew the workload off the CPU (working almost independently from the CPU), the SPEs take the workload off the PPE.

Note that the Amiga game developers needed some time to properly adapt to the Amiga custom chips.When exclusive Amiga games started to beome far more impressive than mutli-platform games eventually multi-platform games started to improve considerably as well utilizing the custom chips much better.

Nowhere in your post have you mentioned how this is good for AI? You seem to be unable to comprehend the idea that not all tasks are equal. Have you noticed how much better a GPU is than a CPU for graphics processing? So why don't we run windows on our GPU?

Get off the Cell hype train and realise that just because the Cell is "more than twice as powerful as the xenon" that it is suddenly etter at everything. The Cell processor is quite simply not designed to handle AI. No amount of hype or development effort will fix this. You can make good AI for the Cell, but the Xenon will always have more potential.

 



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leo-j on 15 August 2007

@omgwfbbq

Yes a 3 core system can easily handle better graphcis than a 7 core system. I had this discussin before with a 360 fanboy and wooped him to shape I have no time for your BS.



 

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Sporticus on 15 August 2007
leo-j said:
@omgwfbbq

Yes a 3 core system can easily handle better graphcis than a 7 core system. I had this discussin before with a 360 fanboy and wooped him to shape I have no time for your BS.

Just because something works in theory doesn't mean it can be a reality when combined with other factors.



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Entroper on 15 August 2007
ckmlb said:
I'm glad Ubisoft has put this info out there so that when the game comes out and the AI is nothing special I can revisit this and laugh.

If Conviction doesn't somehow blow away all AI ever made before on a console then this statement was a bad joke.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I asked people to keep their eyes peeled.  :)



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your mother on 15 August 2007

Yeah, kinda like the forum rules that when combined with other factors are nothing more than fantasy because repeat banned offenders keep flaunting them.



Sporticus on 15 August 2007
your mother said:
Yeah, kinda like the forum rules that when combined with other factors are nothing more than fantasy because repeat banned offenders keep flaunting them.

How does this have anything to do with what Entroper said?



“The Hardcore of the Peach is its pits. Try to get the whole fruit!”

- John Lucas

 

“Every industry is filled with the grave stones of companies who kept doing the same thing.”

- Reggie Fils-Aime

 

“You don’t play Graphics, you look at them.”

- Unknown

 

“Casual Gaming = Anything that’s not an FPS”

- Sony Fandom

Final-Fan on 16 August 2007
omgwtfbbq said:
Final-Fan said:

Well omgwtfbbq I have to say that you've easily convinced me (with the earlier post) that the PS3 is a lot better at physics and graphics than it is at AI. However, I am not convinced that the weakness is as great as you claim -- that (1) the PPE will be bogged down quite a bit by having to juggle the SPEs and (2) the disadvantage of the Cell's single PPE will outweigh the advantage of its ability to dump graphics/physics processing onto the many SPEs, as compared to the Xenon in the 360.

Point 2 especially is one that I think remains to be definitively demonstrated one way or the other. Obviously a game focusing on extremely sophisticated AI but with minimal graphics would be much better off on the 360, but I don't think that's a likely portrait of future 360/PS3 games.

Now I should say that I am not a person with technical knowledge of processors at this level of detail, and if I have overlooked a fact which is blindingly obvious to you then I apologize, but please don't discount me entirely due to that.

I would welcome being proven wrong, in detail, with brutal honesty -- because then I would know more than I do now.

Erm, you do realise that the graphics is handled by the GPU right? The GPU in the Xbox is much more capable than the Cell for handling graphics.

As for a game that requires top physics, top graphics, AND great AI, you have to remember that the Xbox360 is still a 3 core system. While the GPU can handle the graphics, there are still three cores to split between physics and AI, as opposed to the PS3 where the PPE has to handle the AI as well as other things.

I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could find a situation where the PS3's SPUs will give it enough of an advantage to overcome not having an entire core dedicated to AI, but in almost every case you'll find the Xbox360 will be better.

 


Turns out I forgot that little detail -- which would have happened no matter how much of an expert I was or wasn't. Oh well. But still, there has to be some advantage "1 core and 7 SPEs [edit: AND a GPU]" has over "3 cores and 1 GPU". It just can't be a one way street.

[edit2: And it may not be intentional, but you now seem to be saying that the PPE has to do AI and physics, instead of being able to move physics work to the SPEs.

[Also, one of the SPEs helps to run the OS as well as "security", so that does in fact take load off of the PPE that remains on the Xenon in the 360. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_Hardware )]



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mitsuhide on 16 August 2007

I dont think its something do with with which system is more capable they are both very capable chips the CELL and Xenon its like Madden and the 30fps against 60fps its that EA couldnt be bothered learning how to get 60fps on the CELL because they had a dealine.Ubi doesnt have as strict deadline with this game but still cant be bothered learning the architecture that = lazy devs.The thread title should say "Ubisoft Dev:We cant be bothered learning PS3 AI architecture".If they made this kinda statement about PS3 AI then they must be pretty sure that this game has better AI than the most heavy AI game ever and if it doesnt then they should shutup.



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Final-Fan on 16 August 2007
mitsuhide said:
I dont think its something do with with which system is more capable they are both very capable chips the CELL and Xenon its like Madden and the 30fps against 60fps its that EA couldnt be bothered learning how to get 60fps on the CELL because they had a dealine.Ubi doesnt have as strict deadline with this game but still cant be bothered learning the architecture that = lazy devs.The thread title should say "Ubisoft Dev:We cant be bothered learning PS3 AI architecture".If they made this kinda statement about PS3 AI then they must be pretty sure that this game has better AI than the most heavy AI game ever and if it doesnt then they should shutup.

This is a good point -- someone before said much the same thing -- but I believe omgwtfbbq and I have moved on to "Big Intellectual Debate (TM)".  Anyway Ubisoft's guys might not have actually said that; the interviewer was interpreting words they told him that he hasn't related to us. 

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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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