By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Ubisoft Dev: PS3 Can't Handle AI as well as the 360

AntiFanTard on 14 August 2007
shams said:

In a way, they are correct. The architecture of the SPUs makes it very hard to compile/run AI on them - easily anyway (anyone know if there is a general C/C++ compiler for the SPUs?).

 

 You don't need a whole compiler, just the libraries. Incidentally IBM gives those away for free along with all the documentation you might need for learning the basics. Try it out some time? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/ 

 



______________________________

VGChartz forums: the new gamefaqs

Around the Network
AntiFanTard on 15 August 2007
shams said:
Hus said:

HA.

Ubi talking PS3 dev, how would they know anything they suck at it.

Ai is mathematics, it pretty well known thats what Cell excels at. You just got to program it the right way. Those fools should give Insomniacs a call.

Next Splinter Cell is a 360 exclusive, theres no reason why it can be compared to Killzone or MGS4

Going to ignore(?) the rest of these posts, but I don't agree with this.

There is mathematics, and there is mathematics. Operations such as square root (or 1/square root) are expensive, and heavily used in physics.

The AI that I have done in the past only uses "basic" maths (weighted averages and the like), and a lot of comparisons, branching, option evaluation and so on. Small amounts of operations across a large and random data set (rather than intense calculations, possibly on a smaller data set - such as triangle rendering, or skeletal animation/blending).

I don't know exactly what sort of Ai they are talking about - possibly some form of weighted response calculation (i.e. to determine their next decision, maybe path finding, etc..) - but I would definitely prefer to write it on a 360 than a PS3.

As Entroper says - it can be developed (efficiently) for the CELL, but it requires more thought, effort and time. Generally less time worrying about the AI itself, and more about the architecture of the hardware.

(in a way, this defines the approach that MS takes to everything - abstract the hardware away, and worry about the problem at hand. In theory you get lower potential (max) performance, but its a lot easier to write - and takes a lot less time. So you can be left with more time to optimise the algorithms themselves, rather than the architecture code).

 


Just read this and I have to say that it was hard not to whince. AI can be very simple if you're making a 2D platformer or an application for cell phones or something but in modern gaming matrices and quaternions and all sorts of fun stuff should be the norm.



______________________________

VGChartz forums: the new gamefaqs

omgwtfbbq on 15 August 2007

Bloody hell guys? Did I say anything at all in my last post? Or doesn't anyone read posts more than 6 sentences? I really do hate wasting my time writing a post when everyone just ignores it. =(

So I'll just go ahead and summarize it for all you lazy bastards.

Cell = specialised processor.
Cell = good for Physics, Graphics
Cell = bad for AI

It's a simple fact. Specialised processors always trade off functionality in some areas for others. The 360 is better for AI programming, and no amount of development will make it better than the 360. If you want a description of why, then read my other post.



Help! I'm stuck in a forum signature!

Final-Fan on 15 August 2007

Well omgwtfbbq I have to say that you've easily convinced me (with the earlier post) that the PS3 is a lot better at physics and graphics than it is at AI.  However, I am not convinced that the weakness is as great as you claim -- that (1) the PPE will be bogged down quite a bit by having to juggle the SPEs and (2) the disadvantage of the Cell's single PPE will outweigh the advantage of its ability to dump graphics/physics processing onto the many SPEs, as compared to the Xenon in the 360.  

Point 2 especially is one that I think remains to be definitively demonstrated one way or the other.  Obviously a game focusing on extremely sophisticated AI but with minimal graphics would be much better off on the 360, but I don't think that's a likely portrait of future 360/PS3 games.  

Now I should say that I am not a person with technical knowledge of processors at this level of detail, and if I have overlooked a fact which is blindingly obvious to you then I apologize, but please don't discount me entirely due to that. 

I would welcome being proven wrong, in detail, with brutal honesty -- because then I would know more than I do now.  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

ckmlb on 15 August 2007

I'm glad Ubisoft has put this info out there so that when the game comes out and the AI is nothing special I can revisit this and laugh.

If Conviction doesn't somehow blow away all AI ever made before on a console then this statement was a bad joke.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

Around the Network
ckmlb on 15 August 2007
totalwar23 said:
MikeB said:

Why are you comparing one game to another? Have you tried porting Gears of War to the PS3 and let game run in the same quality and have all the same content as it was on the 360? Not to mention Killzone 2 hasn't been released yet. Sure, take one very small portion of a future game and say it's much better than an entire full game released one year ago. Oh yeah, quoting yourself tells me you have a very high regard of yourself. Like a huge ego is something you should be proud of. 


Except for the fact that Gears of War can easily be made on the PS3 because Unreal Tournament 3 is coming out on PS3 this November, and it plays as well as the PC version according to all previews.

Not to mention that Unreal Tournament looks better, has faster gameplay (harder to run smoothly), much larger levels, more players in a game at a time, etc....



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

MikeB on 15 August 2007

@ totalwar23

Why are you comparing one game to another? Have you tried porting Gears of War to the PS3 and let game run in the same quality and have all the same content as it was on the 360? Not to mention Killzone 2 hasn't been released yet.


I am only judging the games on a technical level. Note that everything what was shown in the Killzone 2 alpha is in-game. For instance while in the air, they could freeze the engine and zoom all the way into ground level. Killzone 2, judging from the graphical complexity and effects is IMO far more impressive from a technical standpoint.

Killzone 2 looks like a lot of fun, but that's not what I was judging.

Oh yeah, quoting yourself tells me you have a very high regard of yourself. Like a huge ego is something you should be proud of.


I just wanted to point out I was already expecting these kind of comments years ago. I didn't know if they would come from Ubisoft devs though. Overall I like Ubisoft as a games developing company.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Final-Fan on 15 August 2007
ckmlb said:
I'm glad Ubisoft has put this info out there so that when the game comes out and the AI is nothing special I can revisit this and laugh.

If Conviction doesn't somehow blow away all AI ever made before on a console then this statement was a bad joke.

Actually ckmlb if you will look at the bottom of page 2 of this thread you will see that someone actually decided to put those words in Ubisoft's mouth.  They were not directly quoted as saying that PS3 can't do AI as well as the 360. 

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

MikeB on 15 August 2007

@ thermal7

What do you base this on? Do you know the developers? Do they have a history of incompetence? How do you know the Cell processor is "far more powerful than the XBox 360's Xenon processor for calculating AI"?


I have been following Cell development for many years now. I have been to IBM presentations and someone I know well has written many in-depth articles on the Cell processor.

I know far less about the Xenon, but IBM technical specialists made it clear to me the Cell as used by the PS3 is more than twice as powerful as compared to the Xenon. Note that IBM designed both chips.

The Cell provides a far more interesting design IMO (and it should considering there has been far more R&D invested in the Cell than for the Xenon). It's not just an ordinary multi-core CPU, it's more like having many independently operating full co-processors, each with their own super fast local memory. IMO the design provides somewhat an Amiga-like philosophy, like the Amiga custom chips drew the workload off the CPU (working almost independently from the CPU), the SPEs take the workload off the PPE.

Note that the Amiga game developers needed some time to properly adapt to the Amiga custom chips.When exclusive Amiga games started to beome far more impressive than mutli-platform games eventually multi-platform games started to improve considerably as well utilizing the custom chips much better.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

MikeB on 15 August 2007

@ ckmlb

Except for the fact that Gears of War can easily be made on the PS3 because Unreal Tournament 3 is coming out on PS3 this November, and it plays as well as the PC version according to all previews.

Not to mention that Unreal Tournament looks better, has faster gameplay (harder to run smoothly), much larger levels, more players in a game at a time, etc....


Good point and Gears of War could have been done even on the PSP. Apart the high res graphics it's not that complex of a game, at least the XBox 360 version I completed. So IMO Epic shouldn't have made such comments, I guess they only wanted to hype the XBox 360 crowd to push additional sales, like ID software did with Doom.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales