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TheRealMafoo on 29 October 2008
akuma587 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:

We should have a reverse draft, where we send the oldest and whitest people to war first.  If that were the case, war would be a thing of the past in the US.

 

Or, we should live in a country where you don't send anyone. The people, once they hit adulthood, have the right to chose to enter military service... Oh wait, that's what we have.

Do you know many people in the military?  A lot of them joined for money, for college, because they want to shoot people (yes, I have heard a few people actually say this...which is just sad), and for lack of anything better to do.

I am not going to badmouth the troops, as I know a lot of good people who are in the military or have been in the military, but you are overestimating how noble many people's decision to enlist is, or how voluntary that choice is in some cases.

Yes, I worked for the military for 7 years. Of the thousands of the enlisted and officers I have met, I can say they were outstanding individuals.

I worked for the JEOD for a year (Join Explosives Ordinance Disposal), The militaries version of the bomb squad, and I can say these people are a breed of human you will never understand.

They put there life in harms way for others during war and peace. They are not to be mocked, and people you should be proud to call fellow countrymen.

I have seen videos of collar bombs going off while a soldier tries to save the life of the person who's neck it's around. The success rate on removing a collar bomb is zero. It's never been done. All of them know this. Yet when they get the call to attempt to remove one, they go. They signed up to save peoples lives, and it's worth getting there hands blown off while watching a victim's head vaporize, for the minute chance that this time, they might save that persons life.

Your a kid who just goes to school, so you wouldn't have a fucking clue what I am talking about.

 



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akuma587 on 29 October 2008
TheRealMafoo said:

Yes, I worked for the military for 7 years. Of the thousands of the enlisted, and officers, I have met, I can say they were outstanding individuals.

I worked for the JEOD for a year (Join Explosives Ordinance Devision), The militaries version of the bomb squad, and I can say these people are a breed of human you will never understand.

They put there life in harms way for others during war and peace. They are not to be mocked, and people you should be proud to call fellow countrymen.

I have seen videos of collar bombs going off while a soldier tries to save the life of the person who's neck it's around. The success rate on removing a collar bomb is zero. It's never been done. All of them know this. Yet when they get the call to attempt to remove one, they go. They signed up to save peoples lives, and it's worth getting there hands blown off while watching a victim's head vaporize, for the minute chance that this time, they might save that persons life.

Your a kid who just goes to school, so you wouldn't have a fucking clue what I am talking about.

 

Ahhh, now you hurt my feelings.  Then tell me why are rape rates so insanely high for women in the military?  That part of standard training too?

The military does plenty of great things, but they are people like anyone else.  I think it is very noble to fight for your country, but I also think that fighting is rarely the best solution.  Like I said, I have nothing personal against the military, and I think it is a noble cause, but not everyone in the military is an honest person, just like how not everyone on the street is an honest person.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

TheRealMafoo on 29 October 2008
akuma587 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Yes, I worked for the military for 7 years. Of the thousands of the enlisted, and officers, I have met, I can say they were outstanding individuals.

I worked for the JEOD for a year (Join Explosives Ordinance Devision), The militaries version of the bomb squad, and I can say these people are a breed of human you will never understand.

They put there life in harms way for others during war and peace. They are not to be mocked, and people you should be proud to call fellow countrymen.

I have seen videos of collar bombs going off while a soldier tries to save the life of the person who's neck it's around. The success rate on removing a collar bomb is zero. It's never been done. All of them know this. Yet when they get the call to attempt to remove one, they go. They signed up to save peoples lives, and it's worth getting there hands blown off while watching a victim's head vaporize, for the minute chance that this time, they might save that persons life.

Your a kid who just goes to school, so you wouldn't have a fucking clue what I am talking about.

 

Ahhh, now you hurt my feelings.  Then tell me why are rape rates so insanely high for women in the military?  That part of standard training too?

The military does plenty of great things, but they are people like anyone else.  I think it is very noble to fight for your country, but I also think that fighting is rarely the best solution.  Like I said, I have nothing personal against the military, and I think it is a noble cause, but not everyone in the military is an honest person, just like how not everyone on the street is an honest person.

 

So far, you have said nothing about how proud you are of our military. You have said how they rape more then the average person, and join just to shoot people. But then say you have nothing against the military.

I am guessing you probably think the wold is more evil because we are in it. I have seen classified videos, and material about the world we live in, and I promise you, we are not the bad guys.

You live in a country with the finest military ever assembled, with the more moral collection of soldiers ever to serve, and yet all you can muster to do is insult them.

Unbelievable.



akuma587 on 29 October 2008
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:

Ahhh, now you hurt my feelings.  Then tell me why are rape rates so insanely high for women in the military?  That part of standard training too?

The military does plenty of great things, but they are people like anyone else.  I think it is very noble to fight for your country, but I also think that fighting is rarely the best solution.  Like I said, I have nothing personal against the military, and I think it is a noble cause, but not everyone in the military is an honest person, just like how not everyone on the street is an honest person.

 

So far, you have said nothing about how proud you are of our military. You have said how they rape more then the average person, and join just to shoot people. But then say you have nothing against the military.

I am guessing you probably think the wold is more evil because we are in it. I have seen classified videos, and material about the world we live in, and I promise you, we are not the bad guys.

You live in a country with the finest military ever assembled, with the more moral collection of soldiers ever to serve, and yet all you can muster to do is insult them.

Unbelievable.

People are people.  Whatever they are doing they aren't perfect.  That doesn't mean they are bad people, it just means that I don't give people in any walk of life unconditional praise.  Politicians are dishonest, poor people are dishonest, rich people are dishonest, and people in the military are also dishonest.  All of those people can do great things, but all of them are also human.

And rape rates are ludicrously high in the military, which several people I know in the military have told me themselves.  Look at any statistics on the issue too.  Facts are facts.  Do I hold it against the military?  No, they are just people and the military can be pretty stressful.  Does that make it right?  No. 

The person in the military who I know best told me one day about his friend who fell asleep while he was on his mounted vehicle turret and some villagers in Iraq were having a festival.  He woke up and was startled when he saw all the lights and some fires and thought there was an attack.  He shot and killed a ton of innocent women and children.  Should I just ignore that stuff like that happens?  The military is far from perfect because it is made up of people.

I understand that mistakes happen in war time, and sometimes what seemed like good judgment at the time was horrible judgment afterwards.  The military is a noble profession, but I definitely do not view the military as infallible.  But why should I view the military as infallible?  Should I just slap a yellow ribbon on my car and bleat out "Support the troops!" like the rest of the sheep I know?  No human institution should ever be treated as if it is infallible.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

TheRealMafoo on 29 October 2008
akuma587 said:

People are people.  Whatever they are doing they aren't perfect.  That doesn't mean they are bad people, it just means that I don't give people in any walk of life unconditional praise.  Politicians are dishonest, poor people are dishonest, rich people are dishonest, and people in the military are also dishonest.  All of those people can do great things, but all of them are also human.

And rape rates are ludicrously high in the military, which several people I know in the military have told me themselves.  Look at any statistics on the issue too.  Facts are facts.  Do I hold it against the military?  No, they are just people and the military can be pretty stressful.  Does that make it right?  No. 

The person in the military who I know best told me one day about his friend who fell asleep while he was on his mounted vehicle turret and some villagers in Iraq were having a festival.  He woke up and was startled when he saw all the lights and some fires and thought there was an attack.  He shot and killed a ton of innocent women and children.  Should I just ignore that stuff like that happens?  The military is far from perfect because it is made up of people.

I understand that mistakes happen in war time, and sometimes what seemed like good judgment at the time was horrible judgment afterwards.  The military is a noble profession, but I definitely do not view the military as infallible.  But why should I view the military as infallible?  Should I just slap a yellow ribbon on my car and bleat out "Support the troops!" like the rest of the sheep I know?  No human institution should ever be treated as if it is infallible.

 

That's a lot of typing to tell me you don't like our military. Kind of a waste of time, as I already know that.

Rape is high because of the conditions you put people in. Take men and woman ages 18-22 and throw them in tight quarters. Feed them, and train them to be aggressive, and you have conditions that will raise the rate of all kinds of crimes.

I would venture to guess that if you took random people off the streets, and subjected them to the same treatment, Rapes and other crimes would be even higher.

As for your friend, I would guess he is not being completely truthful. He probably hard from a guy, who heard from a guy....

Yes, things happen that are bad. People are people. War is hell. When you look throughout history at how wars have been fought (even by America in past wars), and then look at how this war is being fought, you would be crazy to not see how incredibly moral our troops are in comparison to current and past fighting forces.

And sorry if it pisses me off a little, but for you not to take the option to serve your country, and to then ridicule the people who have...

You ought to be ashamed of yourself... I know I am.



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akuma587 on 29 October 2008
TheRealMafoo said:

 

That's a lot of typing to tell me you don't like our military. Kind of a waste of time, as I already know that.

Rape is high because of the conditions you put people in. Take men and woman ages 18-22 and throw them in tight quarters. Feed them, and train them to be aggressive, and you have conditions that will raise the rate of all kinds of crimes.

I would venture to guess that if you took random people off the streets, and subjected them to the same treatment, Rapes and other crimes would be even higher.

As for your friend, I would guess he is not being completely truthful. He probably hard from a guy, who heard from a guy....

Yes, things happen that are bad. People are people. War is hell. When you look throughout history at how wars have been fought (even by America in past wars), and then look at how this war is being fought, you would be crazy to not see how incredibly moral our troops are in comparison to current and past fighting forces.

ANd sorry if it pisses me off a little, but for you not to take the option to serve your country, and to them ridicule the people who have...

You ought to be ashamed of yourself... I know I am.

I don't think I will lose any sleep over it.  Thanks though!

It's not that I don't like the military, although your mind which tends to look at a situation as either a 1 or a 0 might see it that way, I just don't think we should give them a free pass on everything just because they are in the military.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

gomezc on 29 October 2008

Wow; this discussion has certainly taken a turn into deep waters.

I certainly respect both sides of the civilian vs. military argument wholeheartedly. My own wife has odds with military ideals, yet respects the fact that I am joining the military, and the fact that my father is a 27 year veteran of the Navy, retired HMCM from Lejeune, July '08.

I'm joining to proudly serve my country and support my family. I have had/still have many family members who serve in the military and all who have joined have done so to either serve the country, or support family.

The military, just like any other profession, has corrupt individuals inside who commit to immoral and unethical practices, yet you hear about the military's more often that not because of the state of the world currently. Why should we hold it against them?

The military of the U.S. is a volunteer force, meaning each and every individual who joined did so because they wanted to. If you are going to disagree with their actions, take it up with the politicans who make the decisions to go into war or not, but please don't disrespect those who stick their neck out for you in this world.

You have to admit; you may not like the fact that we are at war with Iraq, but have we been attacked again since 9/11? Certainly not. I can rest well knowing that my fellow servicemen and women are out there doing their jobs to try their best to protect the 300+ million people of the US, which I will be doing soon as well. I think anyone living in this country, whether they support war or not, should support the military that fight and die so that we may live the lives we live each and every day.



Coca-Cola on 29 October 2008
gomezc said:
Wow; this discussion has certainly taken a turn into deep waters.

I certainly respect both sides of the civilian vs. military argument wholeheartedly. My own wife has odds with military ideals, yet respects the fact that I am joining the military, and the fact that my father is a 27 year veteran of the Navy, retired HMCM from Lejeune, July '08.

I'm joining to proudly serve my country and support my family. I have had/still have many family members who serve in the military and all who have joined have done so to either serve the country, or support family.

The military, just like any other profession, has corrupt individuals inside who commit to immoral and unethical practices, yet you hear about the military's more often that not because of the state of the world currently. Why should we hold it against them?

The military of the U.S. is a volunteer force, meaning each and every individual who joined did so because they wanted to. If you are going to disagree with their actions, take it up with the politicans who make the decisions to go into war or not, but please don't disrespect those who stick their neck out for you in this world.

You have to admit; you may not like the fact that we are at war with Iraq, but have we been attacked again since 9/11? Certainly not. I can rest well knowing that my fellow servicemen and women are out there doing their jobs to try their best to protect the 300+ million people of the US, which I will be doing soon as well. I think anyone living in this country, whether they support war or not, should support the military that fight and die so that we may live the lives we live each and every day.

thanks

 



halogamer1989 on 29 October 2008

Mafoo and gomezc-- I thanks u for your service. To the rest of the folks who say that we should not be involved with fighting wars in other countries against terrorism, don't worry. Someone will stand up and Get Some any day of the week to defend against radicalism.



TheRealMafoo on 29 October 2008
halogamer1989 said:
Mafoo and gomezc-- I thanks u for your service. To the rest of the folks who say that we should not be involved with fighting wars in other countries against terrorism, don't worry. Someone will stand up and Get Some any day of the week to defend against radicalism.

 

Thanks, but I was never in the service, I worked for 3 years at the Air Force Research Lab, and then 4 at the Air Force Test and Evaluation center. I was a contractor who helped design tools for the military, and put together wargaming efforts in order to test new equipment for our service men and women.

In this role, I got to meet thousands of military personnel, and feel honored to work on some systems that have saved peoples lives. We helped improve mine removal systems that military men would use to do humanitarian de-mining. When the Russians left Afghanistan, they left behind millions of mines. Our men go clear them so people (mostly kids) of foreign nations can live safer lives. I helped improve the tools for them.

When I worked with JEOD, we designed an entire suite of tools for removing IED's.

I was well paid. I do feel very proud that my efforts have helped our military personnel (and some of my designs have directly saved military lives), but never was I in harms way, or would I have ever been in a position to defend my country.

Gomezc on the other hand, will. Thank you for your service.

Oh, and a side note: in this thread a future lawyer and a future soldier debated about military personal and there place in the world. Only the soldier did it with class, respect, and character. 

As I would have expected.