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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Guilty Gear Creator: "'Xbox 360 Development is Easier"

Commando on 14 September 2008

Nice find. Good Work.
btw Guilty Gear rules!



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Loud_Hot_White_Box on 14 September 2008
heruamon said:
vlad321 said:
I need to find me a look at the basic workings of a PS3 are and see where all these bottlenecks and problems are coming from. If John Carmack said that PS3 development is harder and takes a lot more work then it is true. The guy coded parts of the DOOM engine on assembly, that puts him right up there with Batman on the badass list.

That's also why he drives a car worth more than I make a year.

"Easier to program for" equals "360 is more like PC and I like money."

 



crumas2 on 14 September 2008
asc99c said:
786_ali said:
being harder to make means end result is of higher quality

I'm a software engineer and I'd have to say this is a load of rubbish.

As a fairly analogous example from my own work, our system connects to databases like Oracle / MySQL.  Like PS3 and XBox they both have different libraries, that in the end, do much the same stuff as each other.  I'd used MySQL through other mechanisms for many years so that can play the part of the Xbox.  Oracle is better but I hadn't used it before, so this can star as the PS3.

I knocked up the MySQL library to a working state within 12 hours and it had very few bugs.  With Oracle, I spent a week on it, found it more tricky and ended up with many more bugs.

But in comparison with what I expect to happen a couple more years down the road, once the Oracle library got used, and I rebuilt parts of it to work with Oracle instead of being fudged to match what I did with MySQL, it worked better and faster with that second generation.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but sometimes analogies aren't very accurate.  I would compare the difference in coding a multithreaded app to a vector-processing app.  The three-core processor in the 360 being the multi-threaded analogue and the single-core, multi-SPE processor in the PS3 being the vector-processing analog.  If you've ever tried to write code for a Cray, then you'll know what I'm talking about regarding vector-processing.  No one would have argued back then that the Cray was VERY powerful, but the programming was always a challenge, even after someone had a lot of experience with it.

The Cell can do some amazing things, depending on what you're trying to do.  On the other hand, so can the 360.



alephnull on 14 September 2008
crumas2 said:
asc99c said:
786_ali said:
being harder to make means end result is of higher quality

I'm a software engineer and I'd have to say this is a load of rubbish.

As a fairly analogous example from my own work, our system connects to databases like Oracle / MySQL. Like PS3 and XBox they both have different libraries, that in the end, do much the same stuff as each other. I'd used MySQL through other mechanisms for many years so that can play the part of the Xbox. Oracle is better but I hadn't used it before, so this can star as the PS3.

I knocked up the MySQL library to a working state within 12 hours and it had very few bugs. With Oracle, I spent a week on it, found it more tricky and ended up with many more bugs.

But in comparison with what I expect to happen a couple more years down the road, once the Oracle library got used, and I rebuilt parts of it to work with Oracle instead of being fudged to match what I did with MySQL, it worked better and faster with that second generation.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but sometimes analogies aren't very accurate. I would compare the difference in coding a multithreaded app to a vector-processing app. The three-core processor in the 360 being the multi-threaded analogue and the single-core, multi-SPE processor in the PS3 being the vector-processing analog. If you've ever tried to write code for a Cray, then you'll know what I'm talking about regarding vector-processing. No one would have argued back then that the Cray was VERY powerful, but the programming was always a challenge, even after someone had a lot of experience with it.

The Cell can do some amazing things, depending on what you're trying to do. On the other hand, so can the 360.
More or less correct. Game companies are either going to have to start either hiring old guys with beards and suspenders who know what they are doing or universities are going to have to stop gearing CS curriculum's so much to RADers (what community colleges and tech schools are for anyhow). Because in the long run it would seem right now that architecture is having to rediscover the 70s (Before Carmack's time).

 

 



alephnull on 14 September 2008
Geldorn said:
Sardauk said:
asc99c said:
786_ali said:
being harder to make means end result is of higher quality

I'm a software engineer and I'd have to say this is a load of rubbish.

As a fairly analogous example from my own work, our system connects to databases like Oracle / MySQL. Like PS3 and XBox they both have different libraries, that in the end, do much the same stuff as each other. I'd used MySQL through other mechanisms for many years so that can play the part of the Xbox. Oracle is better but I hadn't used it before, so this can star as the PS3.

I knocked up the MySQL library to a working state within 12 hours and it had very few bugs. With Oracle, I spent a week on it, found it more tricky and ended up with many more bugs.

But in comparison with what I expect to happen a couple more years down the road, once the Oracle library got used, and I rebuilt parts of it to work with Oracle instead of being fudged to match what I did with MySQL, it worked better and faster with that second generation.

What a load of crap ... comparing gaming development with SGBD.... Oracel and MYSQL are using high-level programming language like SQL, which is accessible to newbees. We are talking about low-level (eletronically) software engineering with proprietary technology here.

 

There is no such such as "Developing on the PS3/360 for dummies" right ?

 

You do realise that Xbox 360/PS3 programming is done in C++ using industry standard API's (DirectX and OpenGL), don't you?


Which is not to say it's easy, but let's not pretend that PS3 game engines are written in Cell Assembly.

 
Define "written in assembly". Anyone concerned with performance is going to have to resort to a little inline assembly every once in awhile on any architecture. Compilers are as perfect as everyone thinks.

 

 



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heruamon on 14 September 2008

I'm not software engineer, but I do know engineering, and easier to develop for means better...the 360 will get even easier as time progresses, and comapnies will be able to reduce the development cost for 360 games at a faster pop. M$ is a software company at hard, and turning the console war into a software battle is in 360's favor...big time!



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Deneidez on 14 September 2008
NNN2004 said:
we already know that but i want to know how much hard is the develop for PS3 ?

Simple programs, not that harder.

Games, etc, much harder.

 

Especially when you really can't use anything you have learned/done in the past(And I am not just talking about DX & OpenGl.).

 

Harder to develop -> more it will cost, so I completely understand guys behind Guilty Gear.

 

@alephnull

Because in the long run it would seem right now that architecture is having to rediscover the 70s (Before Carmack's time).

And can you point any indication this to happen other than CELL? :)

(Intels larabee? , Uhm, yeah. Nobody wants it. :D)



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heruamon on 14 September 2008

Cell programming is like the movie from a few years back...looked promising, but....

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0209958/



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Vasot on 14 September 2008
heruamon said:

I guess this might be part of the reason japanese developers are working on 360 titles...it's easier, which means easier money...

http://360.kombo.com/article.php?artid=14228

I think it's a matter of time before 360 starts to saturate in Japan....maybe the next console.

 

Of course it isXbox360 has more similarities with the PC from the PS3

It is easier to make ports and create games at Xbox360

The complex architecture of the PS3 does not help the developers either...



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Bitmap Frogs on 14 September 2008
MikeB said:
Bitmap Frogs said:

That's very stealthy, Mike... but there's no direct relation between processing power and difficulty of programming. The truth is that the x360 is easier to program and has a more powerful GPU. The supposed benefits of the cell have yet to be seen =/

 

I didn't say that, but being different (like for example the Amiga was with its powerful custom chips and pre-emptive multitasking) often introduces learning curves for developers and the need to adapt legacy engines accordingly. Regarding the GPU comparison, it's not like you could come to such a conclusion like that (both GPUs have their strenghts and weaknesses).

The Cell (and Blu-Ray and default harddrive) has already showed off its worth in many PS3 exclusives and it will become more and more apparent as time goes on. Just like was the case for the Amiga vs the Atari ST.

 

That's what you were going for, don't try to deny it now. As far as polygon pushing, pixel fill ratio, etc etc no ps3 exclusive is doing anything out of the ordinary and it won't. The cell is just a marketing buzzword for people like you to exploit.

Many of the devs you like to quote can be quoted stating that the 360's gpu is more capable than the unit on the ps3. But hey, let's conveniently ignore that because it doesn't fit the message we want to project, heh?





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