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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Guilty Gear Creator: "'Xbox 360 Development is Easier"

Sardauk on 11 September 2008
Rock_on_2008 said:

X360 may be easier to develop for. Power of teh Cellz ensures PS3 games look much better than X360 games.

 

Oh yeaaa ?! Just like in every comparaison between PS3 and the 360 ..... ?

Much harder to develop doesn't necessarily means more power inside the chipset .... the "technical superiority" of the PS3 has yet to be proven. Personnaly I'm waiting for LBP to show us some impressive graphics because other games in the pipes doesn't seems to pack more power than the 360 ones ...



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

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Sardauk on 11 September 2008
asc99c said:
786_ali said:
being harder to make means end result is of higher quality

I'm a software engineer and I'd have to say this is a load of rubbish.

As a fairly analogous example from my own work, our system connects to databases like Oracle / MySQL.  Like PS3 and XBox they both have different libraries, that in the end, do much the same stuff as each other.  I'd used MySQL through other mechanisms for many years so that can play the part of the Xbox.  Oracle is better but I hadn't used it before, so this can star as the PS3.

I knocked up the MySQL library to a working state within 12 hours and it had very few bugs.  With Oracle, I spent a week on it, found it more tricky and ended up with many more bugs.

But in comparison with what I expect to happen a couple more years down the road, once the Oracle library got used, and I rebuilt parts of it to work with Oracle instead of being fudged to match what I did with MySQL, it worked better and faster with that second generation.

What a load of crap ... comparing gaming development with SGBD.... Oracel and MYSQL are using high-level programming language like SQL, which is accessible to newbees.  We are talking about low-level (eletronically) software engineering with proprietary technology here.

 

There is no such such as "Developing on the PS3/360 for dummies" right ?

 



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

Bitmap Frogs on 11 September 2008
Sardauk said:

 

Oh yeaaa ?! Just like in every comparaison between PS3 and the 360 ..... ?

Much harder to develop doesn't necessarily means more power inside the chipset .... the "technical superiority" of the PS3 has yet to be proven. Personnaly I'm waiting for LBP to show us some impressive graphics because other games in the pipes doesn't seems to pack more power than the 360 ones ...

 

Don't be evil, they've shelled out 400-600$ just on promises, let them at least bask in the "glorious future" that's supposed to happen.





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

asc99c on 11 September 2008

What a load of crap ... comparing gaming development with SGBD.... Oracel and MYSQL are using high-level programming language like SQL, which is accessible to newbees.  We are talking about low-level (eletronically) software engineering with proprietary technology here.

There is no such such as "Developing on the PS3/360 for dummies" right ?

Two points to this:

1) firstly I was writing the low-level libraries for higher level programs to use SQL e.g. allocating handles and preparing statements with flags to use C-style null terminated value strings, converting to native data types and doing byte order swapping etc - so that a higher level program can just execute a high-level SQL string.  The sort of stuff that ODBC / JDBC does, but they aren't reliably available on all the platforms we use (damn AIX 4.3).

2) you're exactly right about the difference in complexity - hence I was talking about 1.5 days versus a week to do this work, while writing a game engine can take years.

But I think the analogy stands.  For PHP I knew to do mysql_init, mysql_options, then mysql_real_connect.  For Oracle, I had to learn to use OCIEnvInit, OCIHandleAlloc a few times for various handles, OCIServerAttach, OCIAttrSet, OCISessionBegin.  Overall both sequences connect to a database with the options I want.



MikeB on 11 September 2008
vlad321 said:
I need to find me a look at the basic workings of a PS3 are and see where all these bottlenecks and problems are coming from. If John Carmack said that PS3 development is harder and takes a lot more work then it is true. The guy coded parts of the DOOM engine on assembly, that puts him right up there with Batman on the badass list.

The Doom engine was written in a C language, Carmack claimed it was impossible to port the game to the Amiga at the time. After the game went open source, PD devs had the game up and running on Amiga hardware within days, this on lower specced and older Amiga models than it is possible to run this game on a PC.

Yes, the PS3 is generally harder to develop for than it is for the 360 (unless you already have a mature PS3 game engine to work with, which allows you to go much further far easier, the 360 is more legacy and PC like, so the PS3 is more different compared to legacy solutions, more effort required to rework game engines). The Insomniac guys aren't gods. Designing a new engine from the ground up is easier on the PS3 than it was on the PS2, although of course the PS3 has more capabilities and features. It's easier to tap out an Atari ST (easier to get quick results as well as easier to get the most out of the harddware) than it would be an Amiga, but the Amiga was far more powerful for games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ic3Fy-tVY

 



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

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Bitmap Frogs on 11 September 2008

That's very stealthy, Mike... but there's no direct relation between processing power and difficulty of programming. The truth is that the x360 is easier to program and has a more powerful GPU. The supposed benefits of the cell have yet to be seen =/





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

Geldorn on 11 September 2008
Sardauk said:
asc99c said:
786_ali said:
being harder to make means end result is of higher quality

I'm a software engineer and I'd have to say this is a load of rubbish.

As a fairly analogous example from my own work, our system connects to databases like Oracle / MySQL.  Like PS3 and XBox they both have different libraries, that in the end, do much the same stuff as each other.  I'd used MySQL through other mechanisms for many years so that can play the part of the Xbox.  Oracle is better but I hadn't used it before, so this can star as the PS3.

I knocked up the MySQL library to a working state within 12 hours and it had very few bugs.  With Oracle, I spent a week on it, found it more tricky and ended up with many more bugs.

But in comparison with what I expect to happen a couple more years down the road, once the Oracle library got used, and I rebuilt parts of it to work with Oracle instead of being fudged to match what I did with MySQL, it worked better and faster with that second generation.

What a load of crap ... comparing gaming development with SGBD.... Oracel and MYSQL are using high-level programming language like SQL, which is accessible to newbees.  We are talking about low-level (eletronically) software engineering with proprietary technology here.

 

There is no such such as "Developing on the PS3/360 for dummies" right ?

 

You do realise that Xbox 360/PS3 programming is done in C++ using industry standard API's (DirectX and OpenGL), don't you?


Which is not to say it's easy, but let's not pretend that PS3 game engines are written in Cell Assembly.

 



MikeB on 11 September 2008
Bitmap Frogs said:

That's very stealthy, Mike... but there's no direct relation between processing power and difficulty of programming. The truth is that the x360 is easier to program and has a more powerful GPU. The supposed benefits of the cell have yet to be seen =/

 

I didn't say that, but being different (like for example the Amiga was with its powerful custom chips and pre-emptive multitasking) often introduces learning curves for developers and the need to adapt legacy engines accordingly. Regarding the GPU comparison, it's not like you could come to such a conclusion like that (both GPUs have their strenghts and weaknesses).

The Cell (and Blu-Ray and default harddrive) has already showed off its worth in many PS3 exclusives and it will become more and more apparent as time goes on. Just like was the case for the Amiga vs the Atari ST.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Sardauk on 11 September 2008
asc99c said:

What a load of crap ... comparing gaming development with SGBD.... Oracel and MYSQL are using high-level programming language like SQL, which is accessible to newbees.  We are talking about low-level (eletronically) software engineering with proprietary technology here.

There is no such such as "Developing on the PS3/360 for dummies" right ?

Two points to this:

1) firstly I was writing the low-level libraries for higher level programs to use SQL e.g. allocating handles and preparing statements with flags to use C-style null terminated value strings, converting to native data types and doing byte order swapping etc - so that a higher level program can just execute a high-level SQL string.  The sort of stuff that ODBC / JDBC does, but they aren't reliably available on all the platforms we use (damn AIX 4.3).

2) you're exactly right about the difference in complexity - hence I was talking about 1.5 days versus a week to do this work, while writing a game engine can take years.

But I think the analogy stands.  For PHP I knew to do mysql_init, mysql_options, then mysql_real_connect.  For Oracle, I had to learn to use OCIEnvInit, OCIHandleAlloc a few times for various handles, OCIServerAttach, OCIAttrSet, OCISessionBegin.  Overall both sequences connect to a database with the options I want.

Sorry for my agressivity, you are right on some points ... but this can't be compared with console/gaming programming

GELDRON :"but let's not pretend that PS3 game engines are written in Cell Assembly."

Of course not.



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

Onyxmeth on 11 September 2008

Well I hope this means we can get a port of BlazBlue. I'm pretty psyched for that game. Also Aksys is becomming as bad as Capcom with the releases of their second fighting release. It took Capcom like seven years and five versions of SF II to get to SF III and Aksys seems to want to play that same song. I want my Guilty Gear XXX!



Tag: Became a freaking mod and a complete douche, coincidentally, at the same time.