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Forums - PC - So why do people hate the dreaded Spore DRM (or any DRM) again?

BenKenobi88 on 11 September 2008
theRepublic said:
BenKenobi88 said:
You guys all make valid points, but you can't just ignore the piracy issue. From a company's standpoint, should you just completely open up your game to pirates?

I know the Sins of a Solar Empire people did it, and their game sold well I believe.

I'm not saying developers should do the same, but it could work...is this what you all think they should do? This kind of DRM is crap, but shouldn't there be some protection? This is not like using a car 3 times or a book 3 times...you can't download a car off the internet like so many people download games these days.

What about movies, though?  Those are probably as close a comparison to games that you can get.

As Vlad321 said, I'm all for something simple like requiring the CD to be in the drive, and copy protection to stop Average Joe, but anything else is overkill.  It makes the consumer put up with BS, and doesn't stop the game from being pirated anyway.

Some hurdle is needed to keep it from being too easy, but extensive DRM and install limitations are ridiculous.

What about movies?  You shouldn't be able to watch No Country for Old Men on DVD at your house while your friend watches a copy of that DVD at his house...and they do implement security on DVDs against copying. 

They implement new security features on DVDs every few years...it's easily hacked though.

 



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twesterm on 11 September 2008
dib8rman said:
It's a snowball effect, in 1994 was sharing copies of games such a huge deal that something DRM like would be needed?

I'm not exactly at any standing point on DRM, I haven't done nearly enough checking into its concept. But from what I understand it's some form of ID tag that creates restrictions on products purchased at full price.

The issue would be at what price would the product be renting or bought. There is a major difference, fortunately Block Buster forced the US government to acknowledge this with their late fee clause.

So at what point does the person own the product? Does the person own the DRM inside the product? If that's the case is it legal for the person should a means arrive to remove the DRM that they own?

If they don't own the DRM then are they stealing that portion of the product? Is it free? Did the person ask for it?

Sounds like DRM is literally being forced down the consumers throats when the real piracy is in bootlegging and not just sharing disks.

The big legal issue these days and I'm certain it's bound to show up in court soon enough lay in micro-transactions for either virtual products that were already in the original medium purchased or using real currency for virtual products.

Wow, how my little thread has grown (now of I only had the time read the 70 or so replies I've missed)!

Anyways, copy protection was a huge problem in 1994, so much so that they had something even worse than the dreade DRM.

Every time you started your game they made you look up a specific page, paragraph, and character in the manuel or ask you some very specific question about something in the manual.

That was far worse than any DRM since this was in the days before the internet and you couldn't just look it up.  If you lost your manual you were screwed.

 



 

Sansui on 11 September 2008
twesterm said:
dib8rman said:
It's a snowball effect, in 1994 was sharing copies of games such a huge deal that something DRM like would be needed?

I'm not exactly at any standing point on DRM, I haven't done nearly enough checking into its concept. But from what I understand it's some form of ID tag that creates restrictions on products purchased at full price.

The issue would be at what price would the product be renting or bought. There is a major difference, fortunately Block Buster forced the US government to acknowledge this with their late fee clause.

So at what point does the person own the product? Does the person own the DRM inside the product? If that's the case is it legal for the person should a means arrive to remove the DRM that they own?

If they don't own the DRM then are they stealing that portion of the product? Is it free? Did the person ask for it?

Sounds like DRM is literally being forced down the consumers throats when the real piracy is in bootlegging and not just sharing disks.

The big legal issue these days and I'm certain it's bound to show up in court soon enough lay in micro-transactions for either virtual products that were already in the original medium purchased or using real currency for virtual products.

Wow, how my little thread has grown (now of I only had the time read the 70 or so replies I've missed)!

Anyways, copy protection was a huge problem in 1994, so much so that they had something even worse than the dreade DRM.

Every time you started your game they made you look up a specific page, paragraph, and character in the manuel or ask you some very specific question about something in the manual.

That was far worse than any DRM since this was in the days before the internet and you couldn't just look it up.  If you lost your manual you were screwed.

 

I remember that.  I actually lost some progress in Master of Orion a few times from inputting the wrong word a few times.  Not all games did that bullshit tho...

 
vlad321 on 11 September 2008

Yeah I remember the little blue bubble bottles back in Prince of Persia too. Pain in the ass.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

theRepublic on 11 September 2008
BenKenobi88 said:
theRepublic said:
BenKenobi88 said:
You guys all make valid points, but you can't just ignore the piracy issue. From a company's standpoint, should you just completely open up your game to pirates?

I know the Sins of a Solar Empire people did it, and their game sold well I believe.

I'm not saying developers should do the same, but it could work...is this what you all think they should do? This kind of DRM is crap, but shouldn't there be some protection? This is not like using a car 3 times or a book 3 times...you can't download a car off the internet like so many people download games these days.

What about movies, though?  Those are probably as close a comparison to games that you can get.

As Vlad321 said, I'm all for something simple like requiring the CD to be in the drive, and copy protection to stop Average Joe, but anything else is overkill.  It makes the consumer put up with BS, and doesn't stop the game from being pirated anyway.

Some hurdle is needed to keep it from being too easy, but extensive DRM and install limitations are ridiculous.

What about movies?  You shouldn't be able to watch No Country for Old Men on DVD at your house while your friend watches a copy of that DVD at his house...and they do implement security on DVDs against copying. 

They implement new security features on DVDs every few years...it's easily hacked though.

 

It doesn't have to be at the same time.  You can borrow or sell the movie.  You can watch it on any number of DVD players.

The install limitations on Spore effectively stop you from lending or selling your game, or playing it on any number of computers.

I never said you should be able to copy the game.



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DaSimkin on 11 September 2008
twesterm said:

I keep hearing complaint after complaint of someone complaining how the Spore DRM is driving to piracy and that it's such an inconvenience. I popped Spore into my PC last night expecting to have loads of troubles and have plenty to bitch about later but the strangest thing happened: I installed my copy and strangely enough I was able to play my game.

Ok, so what's the deal?

Oh, that's right, you can only install 3 times, but how many people actually install their game more than 3 times? The only games I can think off the top of my head I've installed more than 3 times are Half-Life 2 and WoW. Half-Life 2 because it's just something you do whenever you make a new computer and WoW because I've started and quit it so many times. Every other game I've probably installed up to 3 times but I don't think I've ever installed others more than that.

So how many of you actually *need* to install the game more than three times and how many of you actually think you're the majority?

And actually I thought about this a little more and starting thinking of console games. I'm one of those people that put games down and just forget about them. Sometimes I'll come back to them, most of the time I don't. Lets pretend that each time I put the game down and don't play it for an extended period of time that I somehow magically uninstalled that game and to play again I would have to reinstall.

So what console games have I done this with?

  • Final Fantasy XII - played two different times
  • Lost Odyssey - On my second playthrough
  • Bully - played twice
  • God of War - played twice
  • Bioshock - played twice
  • Mass Effect - played twice

Now these are all games I decided I didn't like or decided I was just done with so I can assume those were uninstalls or removed to save disk space. None of those were on their third install and they all even had one more install.

I understand some people really do like to install their games multiple times, but it's not like you can't. It isn't that much trouble to call EA and get more installs. As for everyone else, again, I ask why do you care so much? I highly doubt anywhere near the majority of people bitching about DRM's actually are going to install their game more than three times.

When I buy something, i expect it to be MINE.

and I expect to be able to use it any way i wish, lend it out and/or resell it, give it to my future children/nephews/grandkids... whatever.

Corporations keep talking about their intellectual property rights.. well what about my property rights?  I bought your product.  Now it's mine to do with as I please.

And drm does nothing to stop pirates, it only irritates the customers who paid for you product.

Anyone who thinks DRM is a good idea does not understand the issue at all.

 



PSN ID: TheSimkin

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greenmedic88 on 11 September 2008
twesterm said:
dib8rman said:
It's a snowball effect, in 1994 was sharing copies of games such a huge deal that something DRM like would be needed?

I'm not exactly at any standing point on DRM, I haven't done nearly enough checking into its concept. But from what I understand it's some form of ID tag that creates restrictions on products purchased at full price.

The issue would be at what price would the product be renting or bought. There is a major difference, fortunately Block Buster forced the US government to acknowledge this with their late fee clause.

So at what point does the person own the product? Does the person own the DRM inside the product? If that's the case is it legal for the person should a means arrive to remove the DRM that they own?

If they don't own the DRM then are they stealing that portion of the product? Is it free? Did the person ask for it?

Sounds like DRM is literally being forced down the consumers throats when the real piracy is in bootlegging and not just sharing disks.

The big legal issue these days and I'm certain it's bound to show up in court soon enough lay in micro-transactions for either virtual products that were already in the original medium purchased or using real currency for virtual products.

Wow, how my little thread has grown (now of I only had the time read the 70 or so replies I've missed)!

Anyways, copy protection was a huge problem in 1994, so much so that they had something even worse than the dreade DRM.

Every time you started your game they made you look up a specific page, paragraph, and character in the manuel or ask you some very specific question about something in the manual.

That was far worse than any DRM since this was in the days before the internet and you couldn't just look it up.  If you lost your manual you were screwed.

 

Memories. lol

Some games used to come with cardboard decoder wheels with arcane symbols printed on them. Rotate the wheel to the appropriate code to see the correct symbol combination. Much like the manual copy protection, without that wheel, you couldn't load up the game. Hilarious stuff.

Back then, since all games were distributed on readily copied 3.5" floppies, there really wasn't any other way to keep one person from distributing/trading games with however many people they chose to, which is exactly what many people did. 

Of course back then, PC games were practically a cottage industry whereas now there are often tens of millions tied up in the release of a single game.

 



greenmedic88 on 11 September 2008
theRepublic said:
BenKenobi88 said:
theRepublic said:
BenKenobi88 said:
You guys all make valid points, but you can't just ignore the piracy issue. From a company's standpoint, should you just completely open up your game to pirates?

I know the Sins of a Solar Empire people did it, and their game sold well I believe.

I'm not saying developers should do the same, but it could work...is this what you all think they should do? This kind of DRM is crap, but shouldn't there be some protection? This is not like using a car 3 times or a book 3 times...you can't download a car off the internet like so many people download games these days.

What about movies, though?  Those are probably as close a comparison to games that you can get.

As Vlad321 said, I'm all for something simple like requiring the CD to be in the drive, and copy protection to stop Average Joe, but anything else is overkill.  It makes the consumer put up with BS, and doesn't stop the game from being pirated anyway.

Some hurdle is needed to keep it from being too easy, but extensive DRM and install limitations are ridiculous.

What about movies?  You shouldn't be able to watch No Country for Old Men on DVD at your house while your friend watches a copy of that DVD at his house...and they do implement security on DVDs against copying. 

They implement new security features on DVDs every few years...it's easily hacked though.

 

It doesn't have to be at the same time.  You can borrow or sell the movie.  You can watch it on any number of DVD players.

The install limitations on Spore effectively stop you from lending or selling your game, or playing it on any number of computers.

I never said you should be able to copy the game.

That is essentially the real reason for the limited installation form of DRM.

It has little to do with preventing piracy in practice.

A disc key, while not terribly difficult to overcome for an experienced soft cracker, is a fairly non-invasive form of copy protection, insuring that most people playing have an actual retail copy of the disc as they're playing the game. What it doesn't prevent is the buyer from trading, selling, loaning or even just giving their copy away to a secondary user (any used game passed on is a lost sale to the developer/publisher).

I'm pretty sure that's what was one of the real considerations for limited installs rather than just to prevent piracy.

The consumer really would be better off buying the game via direct to drive distribution service.

 



Reasonable on 11 September 2008

Sorry if someone else posted this (as I confess I haven't read last few posts) but does it seem possible the real reason for trying to get this kind of DRM in place is to limit re-sale of used games? PC market particularly seems worried about this and this kind of DRM could potentially allow companies to prevent games from being sold on.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

bloody swamp on 11 September 2008

I am one of those who never rent games (game rentals are actually illegal here) and like to collect games I buy and play. So obviously, I'm less interested in Spore knowing I can't buy it but only rent it for 50€.

 

In my modest collection, I've plenty of games that I've replayed/reintalled more than 3 times, because I really enjoyed them. A game limited by this 3-times-only thing must just not be that good if it can't be enjoyed more than this.

People keep saying about average games that they are worth (or not worth) a rental. Since Spore is basically a rental (an very expensive one), it doesn't really help seeing it as an actual quality game.

 

I like to own the games I play. Since I can't own Spore, I'm not going to "buy" (rent) it. I won't be pirating it either, but I won't blame the pirates who provide a proper product when EA (or others stupid publishers) fail to do so.