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Forums - Sales Discussion - Nintendo lying about third party dominance?

Viper1 said:
mike_intellivision said:
Is it not interesting how the argument has changed from "Third-party games can't sell on Wii because of Nintendo's strong first-party lineup" to "You have to analyze the data this way to get the right result."

Both Nintendo and Microsoft presented matters in a way most favorable to them. The only real issue is the Destructoid piece not realizing what Nintendo said (and didn't say). But then again, there are people out there who feel they lose if Nintendo wins.

Mike from Morgantown

I've learned with each refutation comes a new varation of the fallacy.  It's a cycle that has no end because you can always add more details to the assertion.

1. Wii games don't sell.

2. 3rd party Will games don't sell.

3. Good 3rd party Wii games don't sell.

4. Good 3rd party Wii games don't sell as much as X.

5. Good 3rd part Wii games don't sell as much as X at Y price.

 

 

Actually, it's much simpler than that.  If third party games don't sell, then there's no reason to develop for the Wii.  If third party games DO sell, then it proves that developers don't have to put in effort to succeed, which means they should just dump shovelware onto the Wii.  Either way, there's no reason to take the Wii seriously.  A simple, all-encompassing no-win argument against the Wii in two points.

Seriously, though, I gotta agree with you.  I've been watching the goalposts get moved since December 2006, and they've moved so far from where they originally were, I don't think we're even in the stadium anymore.



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Nintendo isn't lying, Microsoft is just acting like a child, 3rd party support is all they have over the Wii!!

if they lose that as well.....



Wii console: 0595 8808 5698 2709
Super Smash Bros Brawl: 1161 1357 5188

Mario Kart Wii: 1633 4506 4319

PES 2008: 1633 5820 0347

DragonBall Z BT 3: 3823 9760 9484

Pokemon Battle Revolution: 3480 2645 9186
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Nintendo NOW (within the past 3 to 6 months) sells about the same amount of 3rd party software on a monthly and/or quarterly basis as the X360.

In the coming months, due to install base, Wii will most likely sell more 3rd party software (in totals) than the X360.

Lifetime to Date (LTD) X360 has sold more TOTAL 3rd Party Software than the Wii.

If you look at the numbers, LTD, X360 is probably about 10 to 20 million units ahead of the Wii in TOTAL 3rd Party Software Sales.

Probably sometime in the next 3 to 6 months, LTD Software sales will probably the same for both the Wii and X360, with the Wii pulling ahead after that.

You can take a look at the numbers in a separate thread. Thanks.

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=37517&start=0



@Groucho: I wasn't talking about do the 3rd parties think Wii is worth developing for. I was addressing your post, when you said, that Nintendo was addressing 3rd parties with the graph. Because they aren't.

3rd parties don't think Wii is unattractive, atleast if we look at upcoming titles, which tells us that 3rd parties are profiting from Wii.

About porting, that's where you're wrong. Saying that "downporting" is easier than "upporting", is the same as saying that PS360 games can be ported to Wii as they are, but Wii games can't be ported to PS360 as they are. There's a reason why Capcom is remaking Dead Rising for RE4 engine.

Then again, according to you, PS3/360/PC multiplatform titles wouldn't be a problem for Wii, since they are easily ported.
In reality, porting to higher specs is the easiest thing to do, since anything that runs on lower specs, runs on higher too. I'd say that the easiest port to do this current gen, is a Wii to PS3 port. Both uses OpenGL, both has PPC processors, Wiis specs are that much lower in pretty much everything, that you don't need to work around bottlenecks (unlike PS3 360).
If you wan't to reach every platform cheap, you develope your game for Wii, port it to PS3, 360 and PC.

Wii doesn't need 50% marketshare in order to be the most attractive platform, since developement is cheaper. EA has stated that porting can cost (by their metrics) 15% of the original budget in order the port to be seen profitable. If we go by that, one PS360 game costs atleast twice as much as one Wii game, and port would increase the cost by 15%, which would mean that one PS360 multiplatform title should sell 230% of the Wii game sales in order to break even. With PC, that would increase to 260%.
PC userbase is irrelevant to game sales, since PC:s used at work overlap with PC:s used at home and PC:s are primarly bought for other things than gaming (which btw is shown by games attach rate) and with PC:s, you're facing competition from the browser flash games. If the PC installbase would mean something, consoles wouldn't exist, since nobody would be making games for them.

Wiis userbase is less targetable than PS360 userbase, i agree, but you also have bigger chance to have success for the same reason. If your PS360 fails to reach its target audience, you're losing big money. At the moment with PS360 you only have two possibilities: make a game for the targeted userbase, where competition is heavy or target the audience outside the existing, which is unproven. You're going to spend atleast 20 million anyway, so the chances to lose money are high. And in any case, when you look at the proven userbase, you can't discount 1st party sales, since they clearly show what kind of games have sold on the specific platform.

Wiis online marketplace isn't weak, the biggest complain i'd expect from the developers (the biggest ones) is the size limit, which favors small developers.

Online play isn't weak, problem is, that Nintendo doesn't have similar standardized online as PS360 has, it's the same as with PC, although Wiis online is the most accessible. This gives advantages as well as disadvantages (and Wiis online is free). And, unlike you believe, Nintendo has stated they are going to improve it.

Look, so far we have had only a handful of PS360 titles that have turned a good amount of profit, while Wii has had a shitload of them. Maybe they haven't made the same amount of profit than the handful of the PS360 games, but due to faster developement time and cheaper developement, Wii offers faster retuns of investments and lower point to break even.

That was pretty much off topic, but the thing is, that Nintendo doesn't need to tell the publishers how much money they can make with Wii, since they already know it.

@321: The title is Mario&Sonic at the Olympic Games.



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Eikä Japanisti.

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Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

if you go launches aligned ten wii wins, if you go dates aligned then 360 wins. the problem is that it means the wii is growing at a faster rate, which causes a lot of problems when trying to figure out where development should be placed.

the per game sales figures is very important especially when established franchises have done extremely well and distorted the image that nintendo is trying to set.



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i officially boycott boycotts.  crap.

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@soccerdrew: I don't see there any problems. Believe me, money goes where the growth is (because that's where the money's at) and that's what everyone who invests figure out.

Per game sales figure, then again, should include the first party sales too (if you imply what 3rd parties should be looking at) and how big of investment brought what kind of returns.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Microsoft reads the numbers as they desire. I find them to be quite desperate... I have an X360 and it as a very good line up of games, however what Microsoft invested buying all this titles it's impossible to recover with the current sales.



     

 

bdbdbd said:
@soccerdrew: I don't see there any problems. Believe me, money goes where the growth is (because that's where the money's at) and that's what everyone who invests figure out.

thats just bs.  its not like old games sell as much as new games.  the reason 360 third party games sold more in the past year is because a new 360 game sells more than a new wii game.  its not just go with the growth, because thats placing a bet and people dont always like placing bets.

the question that every has is when does the wii stop growing.  it will have to stop sometime, but its not really known at this point when that will be.  anyone who thinks they know at best will get lucky and be right.

 



my pillars of gaming: kh, naughty dog, insomniac, ssb, gow, ff

i officially boycott boycotts.  crap.

soccerdrew17 said:
bdbdbd said:
@soccerdrew: I don't see there any problems. Believe me, money goes where the growth is (because that's where the money's at) and that's what everyone who invests figure out.

thats just bs.  its not like old games sell as much as new games.  the reason 360 third party games sold more in the past year is because a new 360 game sells more than a new wii game.  its not just go with the growth, because thats placing a bet and people dont always like placing bets.

the question that every has is when does the wii stop growing.  it will have to stop sometime, but its not really known at this point when that will be.  anyone who thinks they know at best will get lucky and be right.

 

Actually, the reason the XBox 360 has sold more third party software over the past year is it has had a larger userbase (for the most part) and it has received games that were far larger IPs ... To demonstrate my point, the Wii started out this year in the United States at (over) 1.5 Million units behind the XBox 360 and it hasn't reversed that deficit yet. If you take Grand Theft Auto out of the equation the XBox 360 has sold less third party software than the Wii.

One thing to consider is that third party publishers are not looking at the sales of games today to determine what games to develop for release in 18 to 24 months; what they are going to do is use current sales trends to predict how the market will look in 18 to 24 months and allocate their resources for the market they expect to exist. Right now at a similar userbase size the Wii is selling a similar ammount of third party software in spite of it having (noticeably) weaker support from third party publishers and (noticeably) stronger support from the first party developers; in 18 to 24 months the userbase of the Wii will (at least) double the size of the XBox 360's userbase, and third party software sales are (likely) to be double the XBox 360's, why would they choose to avoid developing games for the Wii in favour of the XBox 360?