Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Is Nintendo headed the wrong way? (As a developer)

Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
twesterm said:





 

I count 8 mini-game titles in this list (I even included Wii Sports and Cooking Mama, which certainly aren't traditional mini-game titles), which is approximately 12 percent of the games released on the system. Perhaps you and I have different definitions of domination?

 


 


 Clear the list of remakes, ports and crappy license games and look at the serious brand new Wii games list and you see the mini-gameness of this list:

Normal games (including sports games): 23

Mini game games (including fishing and cards): 14 

That's a very high proportion of mini game collections and others and in the future it will only grow it seems. 

1. Wii: Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, The (2006) Regular Game

Nintendo

2. Wii: Super Paper Mario (2007) Regular Game
Nintendo

3. Wii: WarioWare: Smooth Moves (2007) Mini game collection
Nintendo

4. Wii: Madden NFL 07 (2006) Sports game
Electronic Arts

5. Wii: Mercury Meltdown Revolution (2007) Game where you roll a ball into holes (good game though)

Ignition Entertainment

6. Wii: Trauma Center: Second Opinion (2006) pseudo regular game
Atlus USA

7. Wii: Rayman Raving Rabbids (2006) mini game collection
Ubisoft

8. Wii: Wii Sports (2006) mini game collection

Nintendo

9. Wii: Elebits (2006) regular game

10. Wii: Mario Strikers Charged Football (2007) regular game
Nintendo

11. Wii: Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz (2006) minigame collection type game
Sega

12. Wii: Excite Truck (2006) regular game
Nintendo

13. Wii: SSX Blur (2007) regular game
Electronic Arts

14. Wii: Super Swing Golf (2006) Sports game
Tecmo

15. Wii: Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 (2007) 71 Sports game

Electronic Arts

16. Wii: Sonic and the Secret Rings (2007) regular game
Sega

17. Wii: Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam (2006) regular game

Activision

18. Wii: Kororinpa: Marble Mania (2007) marble rolling game again
Hudson Soft / Konami

19. Wii: Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree (2007) mini game collection
Nintendo

20. Wii: Mario Party 8 (2007) mini game collection
Nintendo

21. Wii: Red Steel (2006) regular game
Ubisoft

22. Wii: Cooking Mama: Cook Off (2007) mini game collection
Majesco Sales Inc.

23. Wii: Heatseeker (2007) regular game
Codemasters

24. Wii: Wii Play (2007) mini game collection

Nintendo

25. Wii: Blazing Angels: Squadrons of WWII (2007) regular game
Ubisoft

26. Wii: Medal of Honor Vanguard (2007) regular game
Electronic Arts

27. Wii: Avatar: The Last Airbender (2006) regular game
THQ

28. Wii: Bust-A-Move Bash! (2007) mini game collection
Majesco Sales Inc.

29. Wii: Monster 4X4 World Circuit (2006) regular game
Ubisoft

30. Wii: Wing Island (2007) regular game
Konami

31. Wii: World Series of Poker: Tournament of Champions (2006) card game
Activision

32. Wii: Rampage: Total Destruction (2006) regular game

Midway

33. Wii: GT Pro Series (2006) regular game

Ubisoft

34. Wii: Rapala Tournament Fishing! (2006) fishing game
Activision

35. Wii: Tamagotchi Party On! (2007) mini game collection

Namco Bandai Games

36. Wii: Escape from Bug Island (2007) regular game

Eidos Interactive / Nintendo

37. Wii: Legend of the Dragon (2007) regular game
The Game Factory



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I think that's a fair point, Ck, but I do feel like you go too far the other way. Fishing is a mini-game? Poker as a mini-game? If Fishing and Poker are mini-games, then they're pretty crappy ones, because it's basically the only mini-game on the disc :p

I think realistically the total amount is somewhere in between what I put (which includes games no one has ever heard of) and what you have (again, Fishing isn't really a mini-game. I think you're just including any game that fits in a genre you don't care much about). Something like 20 percent, perhaps?  



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Bodhesatva said:

I think that's a fair point, Ck, but I do feel like you go too far the other way. Fishing is a mini-game? Poker as a mini-game? If Fishing and Poker are mini-games, then they're pretty crappy ones, because it's basically the only mini-game on the disc :p

I think realistically the total amount is somewhere in between what I put (which includes games no one has ever heard of) and what you have (again, Fishing isn't really a mini-game. I think you're just including any game that fits in a genre you don't care much about). Something like 20 percent, perhaps?


 They aren't exactly your traditional video game either they are those casual games for non gamer types.



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ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:

I think that's a fair point, Ck, but I do feel like you go too far the other way. Fishing is a mini-game? Poker as a mini-game? If Fishing and Poker are mini-games, then they're pretty crappy ones, because it's basically the only mini-game on the disc :p

I think realistically the total amount is somewhere in between what I put (which includes games no one has ever heard of) and what you have (again, Fishing isn't really a mini-game. I think you're just including any game that fits in a genre you don't care much about). Something like 20 percent, perhaps?


They aren't exactly your traditional video game either they are those casual games for non gamer types.


 Okay, that definitely makes a difference. Rather than just saying "mini game" types, how about "games for more casual players?" Then I think we're getting somewhere.



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:

I think that's a fair point, Ck, but I do feel like you go too far the other way. Fishing is a mini-game? Poker as a mini-game? If Fishing and Poker are mini-games, then they're pretty crappy ones, because it's basically the only mini-game on the disc :p

I think realistically the total amount is somewhere in between what I put (which includes games no one has ever heard of) and what you have (again, Fishing isn't really a mini-game. I think you're just including any game that fits in a genre you don't care much about). Something like 20 percent, perhaps?


They aren't exactly your traditional video game either they are those casual games for non gamer types.


Okay, that definitely makes a difference. Rather than just saying "mini game" types, how about "games for more casual players?" Then I think we're getting somewhere.


 Ok the Wii is being dominated by casual games with traditional ones being lower than ever. Fishin and card games are the kind of stuff you can play on your PC for free they don't count in the same category as Mario or anything traditional...



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ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:

I think that's a fair point, Ck, but I do feel like you go too far the other way. Fishing is a mini-game? Poker as a mini-game? If Fishing and Poker are mini-games, then they're pretty crappy ones, because it's basically the only mini-game on the disc :p

I think realistically the total amount is somewhere in between what I put (which includes games no one has ever heard of) and what you have (again, Fishing isn't really a mini-game. I think you're just including any game that fits in a genre you don't care much about). Something like 20 percent, perhaps?


They aren't exactly your traditional video game either they are those casual games for non gamer types.


Okay, that definitely makes a difference. Rather than just saying "mini game" types, how about "games for more casual players?" Then I think we're getting somewhere.


Ok the Wii is being dominated by casual games with traditional ones being lower than ever. Fishin and card games are the kind of stuff you can play on your PC for free they don't count in the same category as Mario or anything traditional...


 Yeah, I can agree with that. The same is true of the DS. As HappySquirrel pointed out, though, this doesn't need to be the case; games like New Super Mario Bros, Pokemon, Mario Kart DS, and now for the Wii Zelda: Twilight Princess clearly can sell, and can sell well. The market for "core" gamer games on the Nintendo systems is there, but no one has really capitalized on it except Nintendo themselves.

The DS in particular absolutely astounds me, since its been out so much longer. Where are the major third party titles? They're finally coming around I suppose -- Square has delivered a new Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden is on the way -- but the DS has been dominating for well over a year now, and until then, we basically had nothing. There has been no Metal Gears, no Grand Theft Autos, no Kingdom Hearts, no Resident Evils... up until now, the only thing to speak of was a Final Fantasy Remake. None of the major established 3rd party franchises have touched the system, despite its market dominance, and despite the clear evidence that core games can sell well. 



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Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:


 


 


 


Yeah, I can agree with that. The same is true of the DS. As HappySquirrel pointed out, though, this doesn't need to be the case; games like New Super Mario Bros, Pokemon, Mario Kart DS, and now for the Wii Zelda: Twilight Princess clearly can sell, and can sell well. The market for "core" gamer games on the Nintendo systems is there, but no one has really capitalized on it except Nintendo themselves.

The DS in particular absolutely astounds me, since its been out so much longer. Where are the major third party titles? They're finally coming around I suppose -- Square has delivered a new Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden is on the way -- but the DS has been dominating for well over a year now, and until then, we basically had nothing. There has been no Metal Gears, no Grand Theft Autos, no Kingdom Hearts, no Resident Evils... up until now, the only thing to speak of was a Final Fantasy Remake. None of the major established 3rd party franchises have touched the system, despite its market dominance, and despite the clear evidence that core games can sell well.


 Core games when it comes to Nintendo stuff yes, but 3rd party still nothing impressive. Also I think NG on DS will not be a big seller. 3rd party core games still doing poorly relatively speaking on DS and especially on Wii so far, the future we'll see what happens.



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What about:
Mahjong stripper games (Japan only)
dating sims (again Japan)
anime based games
Rez
Party Girls (truly a minigame collection with anime bikini girls)
Michigan Report from Hell
Guitar Hero
Katamari
Australian Idol singer (mic support)
DDR Supernova
Indigo Prophecy (kinda like a interactive movie but very good)
Harvest Moon
James Pond Codename: Robocod
Paparazzi
Rayman Raving Rabbids
Monkey Mania
Super Monkeyball
The Bouncer (3 hours of FMV but the game can be beaten in 19 minutes)
World Superpolice
Thats 19 games not considering some are part from series and some are genres (that have dozens of games) that I remember playing, all for the PS2. The list may be larger than 200 hundred eccentric or non conventional games. I did not include fishing and other simulators because I have not played or see them (so I do not know their names or number). Did this collection destroyed the PS2? What about the labels you like to use for Wii games, do they apply for these games? There is much more "non-games" for PS2 than the Wii right now (absolute and proportional numbers also). Just my personal list is more than the full library of most PS2 owners and even so I can say that few of them know about the existence of these games. You have to stop this: games that I do not play or like are bull or non-games. Shadow of Colossus does not fit in most gaming genres today (well there is the subjective adventure genre but that does not help). People still enjoy the game and rate it high on reviews. Personally I think that game is crap but I do not go to Sony forums to say that. I only talk about it when it is relevant to the discussion. Yet you have to go on and tell everyone that the Wii life cycle will only have these kind of games. You should be more concerned about the PS3 (your favorite system) lack of good games right now than the future of the Wii. Leave that for the ones that really care about the console.



Satan said:

"You are for ever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant's wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God's shrine."

ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:


 


 


 


Yeah, I can agree with that. The same is true of the DS. As HappySquirrel pointed out, though, this doesn't need to be the case; games like New Super Mario Bros, Pokemon, Mario Kart DS, and now for the Wii Zelda: Twilight Princess clearly can sell, and can sell well. The market for "core" gamer games on the Nintendo systems is there, but no one has really capitalized on it except Nintendo themselves.

The DS in particular absolutely astounds me, since its been out so much longer. Where are the major third party titles? They're finally coming around I suppose -- Square has delivered a new Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden is on the way -- but the DS has been dominating for well over a year now, and until then, we basically had nothing. There has been no Metal Gears, no Grand Theft Autos, no Kingdom Hearts, no Resident Evils... up until now, the only thing to speak of was a Final Fantasy Remake. None of the major established 3rd party franchises have touched the system, despite its market dominance, and despite the clear evidence that core games can sell well.


Core games when it comes to Nintendo stuff yes, but 3rd party still nothing impressive. Also I think NG on DS will not be a big seller. 3rd party core games still doing poorly relatively speaking on DS and especially on Wii so far, the future we'll see what happens.



That's my point though, Ck. There are no impressive "core" third party sales on the DS because... there are no impressive "core" third party titles developed. Let's go over the list of major third party franchises that have sold over 3 million copies on any platform in the last 6 years:

Tekken
Need for Speed
Metal Gear Solid
Grand Theft Auto
Devil May Cry
Kingdom Hearts
Final Fantasy
Rogue Squadron
Resident Evil
Madden
Medal of Honor
Ninja Gaiden

Of that list, the DS currently has one FF remake, a Need for Speed port and Madden. That's it. By comparison, the PSP has seen Need for Speed, Tekken, an MGS, a GTA, a Final Fantasy, a Medal of Honor, and a Madden.

There aren't even any new IPs that have gotten large budgets, to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong).

A system with 70 percent market share (and growing) and a comparatively cheap development cost has basically no major third party franchises or major new third party IPs, even while first party "core" titles sell like gangbusters. It's pretty amazing.



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Escape from Bug Island is not out yet I'm waiting to buy it.