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Forums - Sales - "Wii Third-Party Struggles Highlighted by May NPD" - GameDaily

Bodhesatva said:

Third parties are in so much trouble. They're struggling to make money on the PS3/360 due to low install base/high development costs, but they've spent the last decade moving away from the market leader, and now are finding it tough to move back on.

Are they really doing any better on the Wii?  How many new IPs built from the ground up on the Wii have met with a lot of success?  The list is very small and the biggest success for third-parties, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games has Mario in the title.

People can point to budget titles and talk about success all they want but how many such titles would a large third party have ot make in order to get the kind of profits they're used to?  The market would be flooded if they attempted to do that.



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i'm sure MS is making tons of cash because of third parties.



 Next Gen 

11/20/09 04:25 makingmusic476 Warning Other (Your avatar is borderline NSFW. Please keep it for as long as possible.)
Legend11 said:
FishyJoe said:

Combine this:

First 18 months software units (US):

Wii - 50 million (not including Wii Sports)
X360 - 28 million
PS3 - 20 million
PS2 - 42 million

with this:

 


Your first set of numbers include first-party sales which makes them useless for this discussion (especially since they're being partially blamed for sales of third-party games).  Also the chart you showed doesn't really show the whole picture.  For example how many titles are competing for those sales?  I would guess far more than are competing for sales on either the PS3 or 360. 


 Um.. thats why he said to combine it with the chart.. i'll do it for you.. from the chart, on average thats roughly 50-50 first and third party ratio (it actually leans more towards third party, but i'll be generous)... now in the first section, we have it saying Wii software sales are 50million.. so 50 divided by 2 is 25 million -- tada.. wii third party sales = 25million

notice 360 is 28mil and ps3 is 20mil.. assuming neither have any first party titles (which is completely incorrect) wii is doing perfectly fine in third party sales

Edit: just noticed darkknight made the same point as me, but you ignored him so maybe this'll still be a useful post



Legend11 said:
Bodhesatva said:


Are they really doing any better on the Wii? How many new IPs built from the ground up on the Wii have met with a lot of success? The list is very small and the biggest success for third-parties, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games has Mario in the title.

People can point to budget titles and talk about success all they want but how many such titles would a large third party have ot make in order to get the kind of profits they're used to? The market would be flooded if they attempted to do that.


Why restrict yourself solely to new IPs, though? Guitar Hero, Resident Evil, Sonic...established third party IPs seem to have done quite well for themselves on the system too, routinely shattering expectations. Heck that's something Wii detractors try to use all the time against the Wii: "well of course that game sold well: it's from a well-known series!" Somehow, in a sequelitis industry, I doubt third parties care.

But even though your limitation is meaningless, let us discuss it nonetheless, for even there the Wii is doing well. We are now ignoring "budget titles", such as Zak and Wiki, the Trauma Center games, No More Heroes, Carnival Games and the rest of the massive list, since despite the fact that these games are quite profitable for their publishers you have again chosen to arbitrarily discard them. Instead, we are focusing solely on the big-budget third-party games, which received hype, funding, and developer talent. Thankfully, this will be a VERY short discussion...

Raving Rabbids is a new IP that isn't neccessarily a budget game, even though its funding is absolutely dwarfed by that of the average 360 and PS3 title. Both titles have gone platinum, and the series is evidently lucrative enough that Ubisoft has turned it into an annual series. Please note: the original Rabbids also came out on the 360, PC, and PS2: those versions were dropped, since they were not profitable. Allow me to repeat that: the only versions of the new IP that were profitable were on Nintendo systems.

The other new IP that fits your criteria is Red Steel. It, too, is a million seller. It, too, is seeing a seque on the system. And, ironically enough, it was recognized by its own creators as being a sub-par effort in the end, which is why they've promised improved efforts for the Wii in the future (for the rest of that soap opera, see Ubisoft: How to seriously screw up your own PR). So, I'm going to say that it was a success.

Hey look! We've now covered all the games that match your meaningless limitations, and you were still incorrect! This was fun. I'm sure you have some objection, or some clarification, so please bring it forward. You'll probably still be wrong, but I've got a half-hour to spare, so it's all good.



Legend11 said:
Bodhesatva said:

Third parties are in so much trouble. They're struggling to make money on the PS3/360 due to low install base/high development costs, but they've spent the last decade moving away from the market leader, and now are finding it tough to move back on.

Are they really doing any better on the Wii? How many new IPs built from the ground up on the Wii have met with a lot of success? The list is very small and the biggest success for third-parties, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games has Mario in the title.

People can point to budget titles and talk about success all they want but how many such titles would a large third party have ot make in order to get the kind of profits they're used to? The market would be flooded if they attempted to do that.


That's my point; there is no right answer to this. They can't seem to break in on the Wii, but the systems they do know how to sell games on -- the Playstation and Xbox -- are both struggling with low WW install bases and have very high development costs.

I'm sure some will relegate the Wii to purely small, expiremental titles to pad the risks of higher budget endeavors on the higher powered platforms. In addition, some companies have shown outright hostility to the Wii; Mark Rein at Epic is a great example. His company makes games that (party or largely) rely on technology to sell, in addition to selling tech itself (the UE3 Engine). Therefore, a system like the Wii, which challenges the relevance of technological power in gaming, threatens Epic's entire business model.

So it's possible that changing corporate philosophy so drastically isn't a reasonable or efficient move. On the other hand, Legend, Nintendo is making more money than the entire rest of the industry combined and doubled, and it's fairly clear that the Wii will end with 50%-ish share of the market. If Nintendo is given free reign over half the industry while every other video game company fights over the other, much less profitable half, there will be disastrous consequences. So that's why I said third parties are screwed; it's got to be frustrating to beat your head against the Nintendo juggernaught, but you also can't simply cede 3/4 of all the profits in the entire industry to Nintendo.



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Was and is there any major advertising campaign for any third part software on nintendo platforms? Also Boom Box is niche.



"Like you know"

Legend11 said:

How many new IPs built from the ground up on the Wii have met with a lot of success? 


How many new IPs were built from the ground up on the Wii? And how many of them are not niche games, with lots of marketing, big budget and high quality?



 ..........
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That post was verbose, Legend, I'm sorry. Let me summarize:

I agree that third parties are struggling on the Wii in the face of Nintendo's overwhelming success. But what should they do about it? Just leave Nintendo to control 50% of the market all by itself and singlehandedy make 3/4 of all the profit in the industry? Should every other company in the entire industry fight over the 1/4 of profits left over?

The Wii clearly isn't the third party machine that the 360 is, but it's also much more popular worldwide and significantly more profitable. What are third parties supposed to do? I ask that question honestly: I really don't see a great solution here.  



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

I think Nintendo has to get involved in advertising these games. You see games like GTA4 getting advertising through both sony and microsoft.

If you remember during the 16-bit era Nintendo was very aggressive in advertising their in-house games with 3rd party games. Look to the Play It Loud commercials which always included games like Street Fighter II, Final Fantasy III and Mortal Kombat



tabsina said:
Legend11 said:
FishyJoe said:

Combine this:

First 18 months software units (US):

Wii - 50 million (not including Wii Sports)
X360 - 28 million
PS3 - 20 million
PS2 - 42 million

with this:

 


Your first set of numbers include first-party sales which makes them useless for this discussion (especially since they're being partially blamed for sales of third-party games). Also the chart you showed doesn't really show the whole picture. For example how many titles are competing for those sales? I would guess far more than are competing for sales on either the PS3 or 360.


Um.. thats why he said to combine it with the chart.. i'll do it for you.. from the chart, on average thats roughly 50-50 first and third party ratio (it actually leans more towards third party, but i'll be generous)... now in the first section, we have it saying Wii software sales are 50million.. so 50 divided by 2 is 25 million -- tada.. wii third party sales = 25million

notice 360 is 28mil and ps3 is 20mil.. assuming neither have any first party titles (which is completely incorrect) wii is doing perfectly fine in third party sales

Edit: just noticed darkknight made the same point as me, but you ignored him so maybe this'll still be a useful post


 Common sense always gets ignored.  It's easier to ignore the truth then it is to face it. 

@Legend11: Stop ignoring this... we'll just keep throwing it in your face. 



Prepare for termination! It is the only logical thing to do, for I am only loyal to Megatron.