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Forums - Nintendo - AAA Wii third-party support on the way, says Capcom community specialist

Ail said:
vaio said:
Ail said:
Ok so every week we get explained how it is cheaper and faster to develop for the Wii yet all over this thread people quote development times for Wii AAA titles that are equal to HD consoles AAA development times...

So which is which ?
Is it only cheaper and faster to develop shovelware on the Wii, but the real games take as long to make as those on HD consoles or what ?

Viper it´s time to bite again, I let you have the honours of this prey.


Typical number we see from Wii fans is that it is 1/3rd cheaper to develop on the Wii.

This would mean that it requires 3 times less man-hour to develop a Wii game than an HD game.

Now some of the development time can't be compressed ( like the QA period at the end).

But anyway based on those numbers you would expect AAA Wii titles to go faster to develop. 

 


As they do, instead of the 3+ years it would take 2+ years and since Wii come in to it´s leadership last year they started aboút that time (if they did at all, which I belive they did) that would mean that sometime this fall next spring we should start seeing and hearing about theese known AAA franchises to emerge on the Wii.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

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Bodhesatva said:

Let me play Devil's Advocate here. I do think better third party support is coming to the Wii -- it's almost impossible that this won't be the case -- but I'm not sure it's going to be the AAA, "everyone abandons the PS3/360 and moves to the Wii" exodus some might hope for, either. Let me enumerate the reasons why.

1) Engines. Companies have invested milliions of dollars into PS3/360 engines, and having now done so, the costs associated with PS3/360 development should be modestly lower. In addition, there is the psychological effect of sunk costs, whether that effect is valid or not.

2) Unclear demographics and marketing. Precisely because of the "Blue Ocean" strategy and Wii's ability to draw in a variety of players, it's often unclear to publishers (who green light titles) what games will or will not work on the Wii. We've seen hits and misses across the board. By contrast, the demographics of the PS3/360 are very well understood -- it's basically the same people who played Halo/Madden/GTA/MGS last generation, primarily composed of 16-30 year old males. Publishers like clear, well defined demographics that they can understand and predict; they do not like making games for an unclear audience with an unclear result. In addition, the marketing firms for these companies have spent decades honing their marketing for the aforementioned demographic; I think many are completely lost when trying to figure out how to market to young girls, for example, or even what they'd enjoy, let alone figuring out how to appeal to both boys and girls simultaneously.

3) Developers. I think a lot of Western developers are not interested in working on the Wii. Many of these developers grew up developing on the PC, and as such, they directly associate better technology/more horsepower with better games. As such, many of them view the Wii as compromising their vision even further than the PS3/360 already do.

If you'd like a condensed version of the above: the PS3/360 sell to well understood markets with well understood tastes that these publishers already know how to market to. In addition, many established Western developers in particular put heavy emphasis on technical horsepower, and would prefer to work on a system with more horsepower whenever possible. The Wii has unclear demographic breakdowns with unclear tastesthat require new marketing tactics.

Many publishers would rather spend 3x as much to produce modest profits on the PS3/360, because there is a 95% likelihood of success. In comparison, the Wii is 1/3 as expensive and has a chance to produce much greater profits, but each individual project may only have, say, a 50% chance of success. Looking at EA as a premier example, they built their entire empire on risk management, by selling racing games, shooting games, and sports games to predictable, stable audiences they understood and can rely on. The whole point of the Wii is to be unpredictable and less reliant on old demographics, so they aren't exactly built for Wii success.

 


 

That and most developers would rather develop on HD console than on a Wii.

If you're a game designer it probably doesn't matter.

But if you're a programmer developing the latest game engine on a HD console is more fun and looks better on a resume than programming for a Wii game ( once again for the designer the chalenge is probably the same and both would look good on a resume).

So the file and ranks at most developer studios aren't probably that enthusiasts about working on Wii titles...( I speak as a software developer, most of the time developing on cutting edge hardware is more rewarding..)



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

HappySqurriel said:
Ail said:
Ok so every week we get explained how it is cheaper and faster to develop for the Wii yet all over this thread people quote development times for Wii AAA titles that are equal to HD consoles AAA development times...

So which is which ?
Is it only cheaper and faster to develop shovelware on the Wii, but the real games take as long to make as those on HD consoles or what ?

I don't think anyone has said that it takes the same ammount of time to produce a game on a HD console as it does to produce a similar game for the Wii. Now, with that said ...

Developing for the Wii is very similar in many ways to developing for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube, and it wasn't that uncommon for games to take 18 to 24 months to develop for a development team of 40 to 60 people; in extreme cases the development teams ballooned to 100 people, or the game took 30 months to complete, which expanded the development budget to (roughly) $20 Million.

In order to get a game on the scale as the big budget games of the previous generation (Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid) a Wii game would still take around 2 years to develop; where their PS3 counterparts take 3 years or more, using a much larger development team.

Edit: Remember that games like Metal Gear Solid 4, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Gran Turismo 5 all have development teams well above 100 people (some even have been rumored to be close to 200 people) and have taken close to 3 years (or more) to develop.


And the developers were alreading hyping the games with conceptual art and stuff 6 months into the developement..

So why aren't developers currently working on Wii AAA titles not hyping them ?

Answer : because they aren't



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
Bodhesatva said:

Let me play Devil's Advocate here. I do think better third party support is coming to the Wii -- it's almost impossible that this won't be the case -- but I'm not sure it's going to be the AAA, "everyone abandons the PS3/360 and moves to the Wii" exodus some might hope for, either. Let me enumerate the reasons why.

1) Engines. Companies have invested milliions of dollars into PS3/360 engines, and having now done so, the costs associated with PS3/360 development should be modestly lower. In addition, there is the psychological effect of sunk costs, whether that effect is valid or not.

2) Unclear demographics and marketing. Precisely because of the "Blue Ocean" strategy and Wii's ability to draw in a variety of players, it's often unclear to publishers (who green light titles) what games will or will not work on the Wii. We've seen hits and misses across the board. By contrast, the demographics of the PS3/360 are very well understood -- it's basically the same people who played Halo/Madden/GTA/MGS last generation, primarily composed of 16-30 year old males. Publishers like clear, well defined demographics that they can understand and predict; they do not like making games for an unclear audience with an unclear result. In addition, the marketing firms for these companies have spent decades honing their marketing for the aforementioned demographic; I think many are completely lost when trying to figure out how to market to young girls, for example, or even what they'd enjoy, let alone figuring out how to appeal to both boys and girls simultaneously.

3) Developers. I think a lot of Western developers are not interested in working on the Wii. Many of these developers grew up developing on the PC, and as such, they directly associate better technology/more horsepower with better games. As such, many of them view the Wii as compromising their vision even further than the PS3/360 already do.

If you'd like a condensed version of the above: the PS3/360 sell to well understood markets with well understood tastes that these publishers already know how to market to. In addition, many established Western developers in particular put heavy emphasis on technical horsepower, and would prefer to work on a system with more horsepower whenever possible. The Wii has unclear demographic breakdowns with unclear tastesthat require new marketing tactics.

Many publishers would rather spend 3x as much to produce modest profits on the PS3/360, because there is a 95% likelihood of success. In comparison, the Wii is 1/3 as expensive and has a chance to produce much greater profits, but each individual project may only have, say, a 50% chance of success. Looking at EA as a premier example, they built their entire empire on risk management, by selling racing games, shooting games, and sports games to predictable, stable audiences they understood and can rely on. The whole point of the Wii is to be unpredictable and less reliant on old demographics, so they aren't exactly built for Wii success.

 


 

That and most developers would rather develop on HD console than on a Wii.

If you're a game designer it probably doesn't matter.

But if you're a programmer developing the latest game engine on a HD console is more fun and looks better on a resume than programming for a Wii game ( once again for the designer the chalenge is probably the same and both would look good on a resume).

So the file and ranks at most developer studios aren't probably that enthusiasts about working on Wii titles...( I speak as a software developer, most of the time developing on cutting edge hardware is more rewarding..)


That´s why it has taken so long for them to start supporting the Wii but as the Wii owners make them selves heard on the companies forums and Wii slowly gaining on the 50% mark ot the gaming market they can´t go with what they prefer or think is more fun as they still need to make money and lots of it.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

Ail said:

 

That and most developers would rather develop on HD console than on a Wii.

If you're a game designer it probably doesn't matter.

But if you're a programmer developing the latest game engine on a HD console is more fun and looks better on a resume than programming for a Wii game ( once again for the designer the chalenge is probably the same and both would look good on a resume).

So the file and ranks at most developer studios aren't probably that enthusiasts about working on Wii titles...( I speak as a software developer, most of the time developing on cutting edge hardware is more rewarding..)


Which explains why there were so few Gameboy advance programmers, and you can't pay a programmer enough to work on the Nintendo DS ...

The fact of the matter is people who enjoy software development, enjoy solving difficult problems not necessarily working on the most powerful hardware. I know tons of developers who would enjoy the challenge of producing the best looking game for the Nintendo DS by attempting to find a way to give the appearance of more advanced lighting techniques on such limited hardware ...



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Ail said:
HappySqurriel said:
Ail said:
Ok so every week we get explained how it is cheaper and faster to develop for the Wii yet all over this thread people quote development times for Wii AAA titles that are equal to HD consoles AAA development times...

So which is which ?
Is it only cheaper and faster to develop shovelware on the Wii, but the real games take as long to make as those on HD consoles or what ?

I don't think anyone has said that it takes the same ammount of time to produce a game on a HD console as it does to produce a similar game for the Wii. Now, with that said ...

Developing for the Wii is very similar in many ways to developing for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube, and it wasn't that uncommon for games to take 18 to 24 months to develop for a development team of 40 to 60 people; in extreme cases the development teams ballooned to 100 people, or the game took 30 months to complete, which expanded the development budget to (roughly) $20 Million.

In order to get a game on the scale as the big budget games of the previous generation (Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid) a Wii game would still take around 2 years to develop; where their PS3 counterparts take 3 years or more, using a much larger development team.

Edit: Remember that games like Metal Gear Solid 4, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Gran Turismo 5 all have development teams well above 100 people (some even have been rumored to be close to 200 people) and have taken close to 3 years (or more) to develop.


And the developers were alreading hyping the games with conceptual art and stuff 6 months into the developement..

So why aren't developers currently working on Wii AAA titles not hyping them ?

Answer : because they aren't


Either they aren´t which is very unlikely or they are trying to get to this market first and anounce a game like that could make another developer come first and gain the benefits of this hungry for "mature games" market. If we don´t see anything or hear anything by christmas then you probably are right.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

HappySqurriel said:
Ail said:

 

That and most developers would rather develop on HD console than on a Wii.

If you're a game designer it probably doesn't matter.

But if you're a programmer developing the latest game engine on a HD console is more fun and looks better on a resume than programming for a Wii game ( once again for the designer the chalenge is probably the same and both would look good on a resume).

So the file and ranks at most developer studios aren't probably that enthusiasts about working on Wii titles...( I speak as a software developer, most of the time developing on cutting edge hardware is more rewarding..)


Which explains why there were so few Gameboy advance programmers, and you can't pay a programmer enough to work on the Nintendo DS ...

The fact of the matter is people who enjoy software development, enjoy solving difficult problems not necessarily working on the most powerful hardware. I know tons of developers who would enjoy the challenge of producing the best looking game for the Nintendo DS by attempting to find a way to give the appearance of more advanced lighting techniques on such limited hardware ...


Yeah I see tonn of jobs offers at Blizzard asking for DS and GBA experience....

/sarcasm off..

Check what kind of experience the top developers (for salary , work environment, hype in the industry) are asking for these days. 

You can acquire some on the Wii, but it's definitly not the best path to get them to hire you... 

 



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
HappySqurriel said:
Ail said:
Ok so every week we get explained how it is cheaper and faster to develop for the Wii yet all over this thread people quote development times for Wii AAA titles that are equal to HD consoles AAA development times...

So which is which ?
Is it only cheaper and faster to develop shovelware on the Wii, but the real games take as long to make as those on HD consoles or what ?

I don't think anyone has said that it takes the same ammount of time to produce a game on a HD console as it does to produce a similar game for the Wii. Now, with that said ...

Developing for the Wii is very similar in many ways to developing for the PS2/XBox/Gamecube, and it wasn't that uncommon for games to take 18 to 24 months to develop for a development team of 40 to 60 people; in extreme cases the development teams ballooned to 100 people, or the game took 30 months to complete, which expanded the development budget to (roughly) $20 Million.

In order to get a game on the scale as the big budget games of the previous generation (Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid) a Wii game would still take around 2 years to develop; where their PS3 counterparts take 3 years or more, using a much larger development team.

Edit: Remember that games like Metal Gear Solid 4, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Gran Turismo 5 all have development teams well above 100 people (some even have been rumored to be close to 200 people) and have taken close to 3 years (or more) to develop.


And the developers were alreading hyping the games with conceptual art and stuff 6 months into the developement..

So why aren't developers currently working on Wii AAA titles not hyping them ?

Answer : because they aren't


Not necessarily ...

For a game on the PS3 or XBox 360 you can release a screenshot of an awful game and people will hype it because of its shiny graphics; the game could end up having a framerate of 15fps and people will still proclaim it as being the next 'Halo' ...

Wii games are far more dependant on gameplay, and just seeing a screenshot of a game doesn't tell a gamer much about the game at all; most of the best games released for the Wii so far have not been announced until they were in a playable form.



Ail said:

Yeah I see tonn of jobs offers at Blizzard asking for DS and GBA experience....

/sarcasm off..

Check what kind of experience the top developers (for salary , work environment, hype in the industry) are asking for these days. 

You can acquire some on the Wii, but it's definitly not the best path to get them to hire you... 

 


How many job postings at Blizzard ask for PS3 experience?



Hmm I want to comment on this thread buy i'm scared Bored4Life will come up with some crazy scheme to call me a Capcom viral marketer.