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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MGS4 to have 90 minute long cutscenes?

shio said:
DTG said:


You haven't played Planescape, have you? It does explain immortality, it's implications, and goes into depth for it; only the developers tried to show it naturally, and not convoluted (which is what MGS2 was like). In the beginning it is explained roughly (or rather, naturally) the immortality of the Nameless One. the player then will experience death, rebirth, loss of identity, immortality; and he will see the impact of the Nameless One's past, who he was, what he did, the evidences he left. The sporadic gain of memories from past lifes will leave the player wondering more about him, without ever having his questions fully answered.

 

Yes I have played the game, but your point about it explaining immortality through the gameplay sequence of death and rebirth was false.The game actually explained immortality through pages and pages of vast dialogue. It baffles me that you would even mention Planescape as a game that has compact storytelling presented through its gameplay when it has the largest script ever written for a video game.

Not having fully answered its questions isn't a demonstration of good storytelling. Hell, MGS2 had more loose ends than any game out there. It's simply a style of storytelling not a matter of quality.

 

 

 

 


 DTG, did you see my previous post about about pointing NPC interaction as a viable way to integrate the story into the gameplay? No matter how big the game's script is (btw, Planescape's writing is divine), if it's used through NPC Interaction then it's already inside the gameplay, more so when it's games that have choices/consequences. Planescape has almost all of it's story (well, most of it) inside the gameplay by default. 

And sometimes the the best way to explain something is to experience it. That is basic pathology, teachers always use exercises, after explaining the thesis to the students, to demonstrate it. This would let the students better absorb the information given. Same thing for games with complex stories. 

This is not the case of MGS2 or MGS4. They exclusively use non-interactive scenes to tell the story, and that is just wrong when it's story-heavy games. It does not give the player anything playable and worst of all, it's storytelling is convoluted and not simple enough in many parts, leaving some people mind-**cked.


 MGS has always had some interactive cutscenes.  The torture scenes in MGS 1/2, the fist fight in MGS3, killing the Boss in MGS3, among other things...



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You don't have to go very far to find a large group of people that find a large amount of anime stories to be visionary and genious.  People have a habit of mistaking complexity for art and depth (I think Rocketpig is fond of saying this).  What makes Kojima a bad story teller is that he has to tell you all of his ideas.  He can't work them in.  At some points, his characters literally spout philosphy.  This is where he fails.  There are no layers to the message.  Layers come when the actions of the characters and the decisions they make are left up to the viewer/player/reader to explain.  Kojima can't do that though.  Artistic media doesn't tell you why, it asks you why.

Don't bring up the huge fanbase argument.  Dane Cook has a huge fanbase and if I hear someone compare him to Richard Pryor then someone needs to die.

 

I initially wasn't going to reply to this post because these types of arguments are invariably dragged down by circular reasoning and "opinion VS. Opinion =in search for the ultimate truth" back and forth yelling but I'll make an attempt contending your point anyway.

You're right that a large fanbase in itself doesn't connote the game having a great storyline. But I think the nature of the MGS fanbase does do a good job arguing the quality of the storytelling. Again, I would direct you to some of the essays and analysis written on MGS2 in particular. If you want links I'll find them for you. Most of those discussions are very mature and well thought out, they are also well researched. Most of them of course are subjective views and deductions so they do not constitute a factual overview of the games, but they're quite credible if you consider all the research and analysis behind their arguments.

 I think it is fair to say that you can find a lot of layered meaning in MGS games. They do present themselves more as tell than show, but the games are also vague enough in some aspects to leave it up to the player to form his own conclusions. Most of the characters in MGS games whether it be enemy or friend are morally gray where depending on your interpretations and beliefs you could justify, sympathise or abhor any one of them, including Solid Snake. At the end of MGS2 you could form your own opinions on what the Patriots said, vilify or glorify Solidus and his arguably Noble goals and literally ponder the meaning of life within the context of "passing on your genes" and "passing on your memes". The game raises the question whether is it what you pass on that defines your own existence, or do your actions and beliefs in life that you hold as your own, even solitary, justify you as an individual among billions of people, both alive and now dead.

It goes far beyond that and raises many other questions as well that aren't as clearly answered as you make it seem. Generally Kojima presents a single or maybe two views of an issue and he does so in a very overt manner, like you say "characters spouting philosophy". I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, because it gives some background on different ideas you might not be familiar with and after absorbing those the player himself can decide to discard them or argue them and learn to form an entirely new opinion of his own yet still being aware of the ones presented to him.

 I personally prefer this overt style of presentation, though the series does contain a lot of subtlety to its themes as well. Such as the Verrazano bridge during the beginning and GWB during the end of the game having been built by a single architect. Why did Kojima include that reference? Obviously its a reference to memes but what it is supposed to represent is up for interpretation.

Again, MGS is as deep as you're willing to dig. It can be a superficial comic experience or you can  extract something
 deep from it.



DTG said:

You don't have to go very far to find a large group of people that find a large amount of anime stories to be visionary and genious. People have a habit of mistaking complexity for art and depth (I think Rocketpig is fond of saying this). What makes Kojima a bad story teller is that he has to tell you all of his ideas. He can't work them in. At some points, his characters literally spout philosphy. This is where he fails. There are no layers to the message. Layers come when the actions of the characters and the decisions they make are left up to the viewer/player/reader to explain. Kojima can't do that though. Artistic media doesn't tell you why, it asks you why.

Don't bring up the huge fanbase argument. Dane Cook has a huge fanbase and if I hear someone compare him to Richard Pryor then someone needs to die.

 

I initially wasn't going to reply to this post because these types of arguments are invariably dragged down by circular reasoning and "opinion VS. Opinion =in search for the ultimate truth" back and forth yelling but I'll make an attempt contending your point anyway.

You're right that a large fanbase in itself doesn't connote the game having a great storyline. But I think the nature of the MGS fanbase does do a good job arguing the quality of the storytelling. Again, I would direct you to some of the essays and analysis written on MGS2 in particular. If you want links I'll find them for you. Most of those discussions are very mature and well thought out, they are also well researched. Most of them of course are subjective views and deductions so they do not constitute a factual overview of the games, but they're quite credible if you consider all the research and analysis behind their arguments.

I think it is fair to say that you can find a lot of layered meaning in MGS games. They do present themselves more as tell than show, but the games are also vague enough in some aspects to leave it up to the player to form his own conclusions. Most of the characters in MGS games whether it be enemy or friend are morally gray where depending on your interpretations and beliefs you could justify, sympathise or abhor any one of them, including Solid Snake. At the end of MGS2 you could form your own opinions on what the Patriots said, vilify or glorify Solidus and his arguably Noble goals and literally ponder the meaning of life within the context of "passing on your genes" and "passing on your memes". The game raises the question whether is it what you pass on that defines your own existence, or do your actions and beliefs in life that you hold as your own, even solitary, justify you as an individual among billions of people, both alive and now dead.

It goes far beyond that and raises many other questions as well that aren't as clearly answered as you make it seem. Generally Kojima presents a single or maybe two views of an issue and he does so in a very overt manner, like you say "characters spouting philosophy". I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, because it gives some background on different ideas you might not be familiar with and after absorbing those the player himself can decide to discard them or argue them and learn to form an entirely new opinion of his own yet still being aware of the ones presented to him.

I personally prefer this overt style of presentation, though the series does contain a lot of subtlety to its themes as well. Such as the Verrazano bridge during the beginning and GWB during the end of the game having been built by a single architect. Why did Kojima include that reference? Obviously its a reference to memes but what it is supposed to represent is up for interpretation.

Again, MGS is as deep as you're willing to dig. It can be a superficial comic experience or you can extract something
deep from it.


See, I do see characters spouting philosphy as a bad choice. As someone on this board said in a discussion about this very topic. (I paraphrase) "Do we discuss philosphy before or after Snake sneaks around the guards in a cardboard box?" It doesn't belong. Kojima is very harshly trying to incorporate his philosophy ideas and it doesn't belong. What he is doing is so very close to the form of philosphical exploration that anime does in bits in pieces throughout a series while in the mean time characters in catsuits are beating up bad people with magical batons. Conversations about the philosophy of Evangelion are usually what can be heard at 8PM between Starbuck's customers and the night manager with the bachelor's degree in Art History. When you get down to it, it doesn't fit the medium. What saves MGS is the gameplay that people enjoy. Maybe you think the story is gold, I think it's a polished turd. Whether you think the story is great or not, an (attempted) serious philosophical effort is not best complimented by a game where you sneak around and often times do rather comical things to get through a level.

To add to that, cutscenes are just evidence of this brute force effort because Kojima can't work it into gameplay were it definitely wouldn't fit. 



Thank god for the disable signatures option.

shio said:
DTG said:


You haven't played Planescape, have you? It does explain immortality, it's implications, and goes into depth for it; only the developers tried to show it naturally, and not convoluted (which is what MGS2 was like). In the beginning it is explained roughly (or rather, naturally) the immortality of the Nameless One. the player then will experience death, rebirth, loss of identity, immortality; and he will see the impact of the Nameless One's past, who he was, what he did, the evidences he left. The sporadic gain of memories from past lifes will leave the player wondering more about him, without ever having his questions fully answered.

 

Yes I have played the game, but your point about it explaining immortality through the gameplay sequence of death and rebirth was false.The game actually explained immortality through pages and pages of vast dialogue. It baffles me that you would even mention Planescape as a game that has compact storytelling presented through its gameplay when it has the largest script ever written for a video game.

Not having fully answered its questions isn't a demonstration of good storytelling. Hell, MGS2 had more loose ends than any game out there. It's simply a style of storytelling not a matter of quality.

 

 

 

 


 DTG, did you see my previous post about about pointing NPC interaction as a viable way to integrate the story into the gameplay? No matter how big the game's script is (btw, Planescape's writing is divine), if it's used through NPC Interaction then it's already inside the gameplay, more so when it's games that have choices/consequences. Planescape has almost all of it's story (well, most of it) inside the gameplay by default. 

And sometimes the the best way to explain something is to experience it. That is basic pathology, teachers always use exercises, after explaining the thesis to the students, to demonstrate it. This would let the students better absorb the information given. Same thing for games with complex stories. 

This is not the case of MGS2 or MGS4. They exclusively use non-interactive scenes to tell the story, and that is just wrong when it's story-heavy games. It does not give the player anything playable and worst of all, it's storytelling is convoluted and not simple enough in many parts, leaving some people mind-**cked.


==> a point that make a big difference between MGS4 and WRPG (lets say PTorment since I played it) :

 MGS4 is an action game in a conflict zone while WRPG are "longtime" (many months) games with conflict zone AND peacefull zone.

The key point is that PTTorment is using the peacefull zone to drive the story while the fighting are used to fight !
U will find this in ALL the WPRG where u will always have town where u can rest and discuss.

In MGS u dont have time to lose since all is about action (fighting/shooting/snaking). So Kojima can't bring some NPC to explain you the story in the gameplay since the conflct is everywhere. that is why he is using cutscene/codec that break the gameplay BUT content a lot of action/dialogue mixed that completely fit with the game.

Of course, in a WPR u will be able to choose what to do using different answer to the NPC but at the end, all is chosen for you since there is generally 1 ending and only 1. This is particularly true a Planetscape Torment.

At the end, MGS and the WRPG are not so far despite some people want to believe. The main difference is the relative interactivity of WRPG dialogue (mixed with poor visual because character are not moving while they discuss) versus the no interactivity of MGS cutscene m(ixed with AMAZING action visual).



Time to Work !

DTG said:
Darc Requiem said:
DTG said:
Darc Requiem said:
Okay, that settles it. Kojima just needs to go off and make movies and or TV programs. Games are to be played not watched. Can this really be true? I mean one 90 minute cutscene is inexcusable. More than one is criminal. I really hope this is some sort of exaggeration.

Stop trying to enforce your opinion on what a game should be. IMO this is the best news to come out of MGS4 reviews so far, and IMO we need more games like this that are full out interactive movies.


I will express my opinion whenever I feel like it as often as I feel like it. You don't like it? Ignore my posts.


 There's a difference between expressing your opinion and  stating them as facts.

 

 

I'll keep this short. Maybe you can comprehend this. A post is the opinion of the poster. I.E. when I post something it is stating my opinion. 



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*90 minute cutscene*

Runs 10 meters

* 90 minute cutscene *

Kills 5 enemies

* 90 minute cutscene *

If it's anything like that count me out lol, i dought it though.



Crud >_>
This is the second thing I posted this week that turned out to be fake. Oh well, no need to lock the thread. There's some nice discussion about story in games going on here.

And I'm making a truckload of vg$ :D



starcraft said:
Oyvoyvoyv said:
Why do you complain? This is taking story to the next level, if you dislike story, buy the mindless shooter games, they outnumber games like this by at least 5:1.
The best games integrate most of their story into the gameplay, ala Bioshock.

 


 No, that award would have to go to the half life series. They are the ones who made that storytelling technique in games mainstream.



don't want to watch cutscenes? skip them. There you go. Is that so hard?



LongLiveTheBeatles said:
starcraft said:
Oyvoyvoyv said:
Why do you complain? This is taking story to the next level, if you dislike story, buy the mindless shooter games, they outnumber games like this by at least 5:1.
The best games integrate most of their story into the gameplay, ala Bioshock.

 


 No, that award would have to go to the half life series. They are the ones who made that storytelling technique in games mainstream.


==> yes with Halflife

but Half life's story is pretty simple to understand and quite linear : u are alone (so no interaction) and u need to survive versus alien and marines. There is more interaction at the beginning but it is BEFORE the creation of the "portal" and the presence of alien.

In MGS it is a bit more complex : u have permanent link between people outside of conflict zone (codec) and u never really know (until the end) who is the true enemy and who is a true friend. In fact, u are always launched in a mission that has begun BEFORE your arrival meaning that the things are already HOT (terrorist attack, infiltration mission)

Note1:  I m not talking about the quality of the story itself but more about the complexity of the story in MGS game

Note2 : maybe Kojima should have put QTE to make all these cutscene more interactive (a la RE4)



Time to Work !