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Forums - General Discussion - The 2008 US Presidential Election - Any opinions?

Kytiara said:
by the way I'm Canadian so I do'nt get a vote, but I'd vote for a democrat. I find republicans too war happy.

 Same for me only I am not a Canadian.

 

And I would for sure not vote on that guy who said 'Bilanguage countries sucks'. 






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Kytiara said:
Blones said:
nataraj said:
Blones said:
Escherichia said:
Ron Paul want's to abolish income tax. On one hand I understand why this is a popular idea, on the other hand I can't help but think that this would result in the worst economic nightmare this country has ever known.

Abolishing the income tax, along with the Federal Reserve, would be one of the best things that could happen to this country. First of all, the federal income tax is completely unconstitutional. Second, it doesn't pay for a damn thing. 100% of what is collected goes toward interest payments on the national debt. How would leaving money that doesn't pay for anything anyway in the pockets of Americans hurt the economy?


Why is federal income tax "unconstitutional" ? Do you mean it was created by an amendment - so its unconstitutional ? Well then, freedom of speech is unconstitutional as well.


No, because the Supreme Court has ruled it so. Originally, the Constitution provided for direct taxes, which are divided equally amaongst the citizens, and indirect taxes, which you can avoid buy not purchasing the taxed item. The income tax is neither of these. Now, most people think that the 16th amendment granted Congress the power to levy income taxes, but this is not so. In the case of Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., the Supreme Court ruled that "the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation." Furthermore, in the case of Doyle v. Mitchell, the court defined the word "income" in the 16th amendment as meaning corporate profits, NOT personal wages. It's perfectly legal to tax a corporation's profit, but not an individual's earnings.


I'm not sure how you figure abolishing one very big source of income for the US will help the country. If you are correct and it all goes to paying the national debt...what do you think will happen if you take that money away? The US can't just stop paying its national debt because it left the money in the hands of the citizens. You'd just end up paying the same amount some other way...


 That's where the Federal Reserve comes in.  If the US Congress actually coined money, like the Constitution says it is supposed to, instead of borrowing unbacked fiat paper notes created out of nothing by a private banking cartel, then there would be no national debt in the first place.

Also, Ron Paul has voted against the Iraq War from the beginning, unlike most of the Democrats, and advocates a strict non-interventionist foreign policy.



Blones said:
Kytiara said:
Blones said:
nataraj said:
Blones said:
Escherichia said:
Ron Paul want's to abolish income tax. On one hand I understand why this is a popular idea, on the other hand I can't help but think that this would result in the worst economic nightmare this country has ever known.

Abolishing the income tax, along with the Federal Reserve, would be one of the best things that could happen to this country. First of all, the federal income tax is completely unconstitutional. Second, it doesn't pay for a damn thing. 100% of what is collected goes toward interest payments on the national debt. How would leaving money that doesn't pay for anything anyway in the pockets of Americans hurt the economy?


Why is federal income tax "unconstitutional" ? Do you mean it was created by an amendment - so its unconstitutional ? Well then, freedom of speech is unconstitutional as well.


No, because the Supreme Court has ruled it so. Originally, the Constitution provided for direct taxes, which are divided equally amaongst the citizens, and indirect taxes, which you can avoid buy not purchasing the taxed item. The income tax is neither of these. Now, most people think that the 16th amendment granted Congress the power to levy income taxes, but this is not so. In the case of Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., the Supreme Court ruled that "the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation." Furthermore, in the case of Doyle v. Mitchell, the court defined the word "income" in the 16th amendment as meaning corporate profits, NOT personal wages. It's perfectly legal to tax a corporation's profit, but not an individual's earnings.


I'm not sure how you figure abolishing one very big source of income for the US will help the country. If you are correct and it all goes to paying the national debt...what do you think will happen if you take that money away? The US can't just stop paying its national debt because it left the money in the hands of the citizens. You'd just end up paying the same amount some other way...


 That's where the Federal Reserve comes in.  If the US Congress actually coined money, like the Constitution says it is supposed to, instead of borrowing unbacked fiat paper notes created out of nothing by a private banking cartel, then there would be no national debt in the first place.

Also, Ron Paul has voted against the Iraq War from the beginning, unlike most of the Democrats, and advocates a strict non-interventionist foreign policy.


Are you implying that the US holds an estimated 8-10 trillion dollars in the federal reserves?  Even if there was enough to pay off the entire US national debt, then what?

edit: ps, I'm not trying to say your ideas are dumb or anything, I'm curious how you think it would work.



No, the Federal Reserve is not part of the government, it's a privately owned organization. It can be a bit confusing, seeing as how the Federal Reserve is not federal, and has no reserves. Anyways, the Fed is the entity that the national debt is owed to. We need to abolish the Fed, and Congress needs to issue a new gold-backed form of currency.



I am not convinced that abolishing income tax or going back on the gold standard would be anything less than disastrous for the US, nay, the world economy. Seriously, how would this work in a way that wouldn't cause another depression?



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Excuse my ignorance for I haven't really put much research into this. It seems to me that only reason to go back to the gold standard is so that we'd have some sort of hard currency to base our monetary system off of. It seems to me that there is a serious problem with this thinking. Gold, other than being an excellent electrical conducter, has the same problem our current system has in that Gold is only really valuble because we make it so. How is this really any different?



Eliminating income tax would just mean that another form of taxation would take its place; the likely candidates would be large sales tax, increased corporate income taxes, luxury taxes, estate taxes, increased capital gains taxes, and carbon taxes. Some of these taxes would have very negative impacts on the ecconomy while others would be far more neutral in effect.

Eliminating the Federal Reserve and moving towards a gold standard would put the US in a very tough position in the global ecconomy. Because most of the developed world uses floating currencies the exchange rate between the US dollar and other currencies would vary widely depending on the current state of the world ecconomy; this would cause instability in the US ecconomy which could potentially result in overall lower employment and productivity.



Blones said:
nataraj said:
Blones said:
Escherichia said:
Ron Paul want's to abolish income tax. On one hand I understand why this is a popular idea, on the other hand I can't help but think that this would result in the worst economic nightmare this country has ever known.

Abolishing the income tax, along with the Federal Reserve, would be one of the best things that could happen to this country. First of all, the federal income tax is completely unconstitutional. Second, it doesn't pay for a damn thing. 100% of what is collected goes toward interest payments on the national debt. How would leaving money that doesn't pay for anything anyway in the pockets of Americans hurt the economy?


Why is federal income tax "unconstitutional" ? Do you mean it was created by an amendment - so its unconstitutional ? Well then, freedom of speech is unconstitutional as well.


 No, because the Supreme Court has ruled it so.  Originally, the Constitution provided for direct taxes, which are divided equally amaongst the citizens, and indirect taxes, which you can avoid buy not purchasing the taxed item.  The income tax is neither of these.  Now, most people think that the 16th amendment granted Congress the power to levy income taxes, but this is not so.  In the case of Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., the Supreme Court ruled that "the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation."  Furthermore, in the case of Doyle v. Mitchell, the court defined the word "income" in the 16th amendment as meaning corporate profits, NOT personal wages.  It's perfectly legal to tax a corporation's profit, but not an individual's earnings.


If you guys (I'm assuming you are a libertarian - just as Paul Ron is) think this is the case, why not put another case and stop Federal taxes. Beleive me - I'd love for that to happen. Would save me a bunch of cash !

 



Blones said:
nataraj said:
Blones said:
nataraj said:
Blones said:
Ron Paul is the only major party candidate running that's worth a damn. Barring a miracle that causes him to actually win the Republican primary, I'll probably end up voting Libertarian.

Ron Paul is an unabashed racist. If you think that is the only worthy candidate - you either don't know Ron well or you support his racist ideas.


What? I've never heard him say anything racist. Do you have a source for that?


Just search the internets for "ron paul racist" - you will get his quotes from his newsletter and the way he tries to distance himself from it ... and you decide.

ps: I personally found a lot about him from these diaries.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/5/193414/2787

 

 


Here are Ron Paul's views on race:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul68.html

 

I'm much more inclined to believe that than some smear campaign on what looks to be a socialist leaning website.


Socialist ? Not really. It is a democratic leaning site (I'm surpsrised you haven't heard of dkos).

You still haven't answered why the '91 newsletter was so racist and all Ron said about it - after several years -was that "he didn't write it". Very poor excuse. 

I'm convinced he is just another racist politician trying to wink-wink towards the bigots ... 

 

 



whatever said:
 

The fact that anyone would buy into this conservative propaganda that global warming is either not happening, or is not due to the fact we've spewed all this crap into the atmosphere, is just amazing. Exxon/Mobil's billions in profit is being well spent on this propaganda.


Although I could just as easily blurt out an attack on liberal environmentalist alarmist propaganda, I've already posted in the global warming topic if you want to respond.



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