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Forums - Microsoft - Who did more damage to Xbox's console business: Don Mattrick or Phil Spencer?

 

Who was worse?

Don Mattrick 27 51.92%
 
Phil Spencer 25 48.08%
 
Total:52
curl-6 said:
xboxgreen said:

I'm referring to Xbox 360 after 2009 in regards to software and the PS3 ended up having way better exclusives when it was all said and done. The multi-platform difference was small between ps3 and 360 after 2007 with a few exception and didn't mean anything when you have faulty hardware and have to pay for online. 

The 360 hardware issues went on way too long and it wasn't resolved until 2009 last I checked. The pay for online model still makes me mad to this day and wish Xbox will get rid of that crap.

Despite my name, I'm not a blind fanboy. I think playstation is a shell of its former self and has nothing like game pass to make it enticing to me.

Witcher 2, Alan Wake, Splinter Cell Conviction, Fable 3, Metro 2033, and Crackdown 2 were post-2009, in addition to Halo/Gears/Forza.

From late 2008 the Jasper model of 360 became available with a failure rate of under 4%; less than the fat PS3.

The damage was done by that point, trust was lost. My 360 broke down twice, which is how I got playing on the ps3 more. I got a replacement after the 2nd break down but was only using it for console exclusives at that point, not willing to strain the system.

So Witcher 2 and Metro 2033 I played on PC. Fable 3 was a disappointment after 2. Alan Wake was good but low resolution (960x544) which didn't upscale all the pretty to my 1080p projector. Crackdown 2 I skipped, didn't look like a good sequel. 

Nah 3rd party games were all for PS3 or PC for me at that point while PS3 got all the console time. 360 I left for things I really wanted to play like Fez and TWD. Those seemed safe enough to run on 360 lol. (My 360 first overheated with Forza 2 release, then again with Halo 3 right in the middle of one of the best holiday line-ups ever. I already played Bioshock on PC though out of precaution...

PS3 was already picking up greatly at the time, so 360 and ps3 fully swapped places for me. From 2005 to 2007 I played 90% of my console time on 360, from 2008 to 2013 it was 90% on PS3. Since multi-platform difference was small it was the 'safer' bet to play them all on PS3 to avoid wear and tear on 360.

Also HD-DVD packing in had me switch to ps3 as the exclusive movie machine. I had bought the HD-DVD add-on on release, only ended up using it for a dozen movies. 

And the final nail was, I was still very much a cinephile at that point, so accurate sound and color reproduction was very important to me. With sound 360 was restricted to lossy dolby digital 5.1 while PS3 had linear PCM 7.1 and supported 24bit 192khz blu-rays. XBox 360 also had this annoying system wide gamma correction build in to make the colors 'pop', while adding black crush. I did an analysis of the black crush with a DSLR camera on my projector which has in built tools for calibration. But no way to undo unwanted gamma 'correction'

Comparison between 360 and PS3 displaying the same RGB test gradient


PS3 is on top, perfectly linear luminance gradient, 360 on the bottom with black crush and 50% (RGB 127,127,127) either not at 50% on the screen or having to clip the top end to raise 127,127,127 to 50% luminance. 

This was at the time with the whole limited vs full RGB nonsense (above both set to full RGB including projector) and PS3 getting accused to be 'washed out'. But it was only washed out if you corrected your TV to make 360 not have black crush... So when I had calibrated my projector and TV for PS3 (since it was my blu-ray player), there was no going back. 360 just looked too dark now.

Anyway, all added up together, no trust in using 360, 3rd party games just as well on ps3 or PC, better exclusives on PS3 in the second half, games and movies looking better on PS3 after calibrating the display, ps3 easily became my main console and therefore also ps4 became my first next gen purchase.

So XBox One already started at a disadvantage (for me) before the whole Kinect and DRM additions. Then when One S was announced I got interested, but MS also announced One X right at the same time. So I waited for the One X, yet by then I had fallen in love with PSVR1... (And had already bought a PS4 Pro for PSVR)

Spencer started in 2014, couldn't get my trust back after Mattrick. And the wishy washy stance on VR definitely didn't help at the time. 
https://www.roadtovr.com/windows-mixed-reality-dev-headsets-ship-month-vr-content-coming-xbox-scorpio/
https://www.roadtovr.com/xbox-head-phil-spencer-clarifies-stance-vr-xbox-one-x-refreshingly-candid-interview/
https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/20/17485852/microsoft-xbox-one-no-vr-headset-support-windows-mixed-reality-e3-2018

Don Mattrick broke my trust in XBox, Phil Spencer killed my dreams of playing VR on One X. Both attacked physical game ownership. That's one more factor, since PS3 had blu-ray, XBox was first to abandon full game releases on disc, instead download the rest. And then first to have download codes in game boxes. 

So as a movie and game collector at that time, XBox did everything wrong.



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Imaginedvl said:
RolStoppable said:

The 360 sold more than 40m units in the USA, the PS3 couldn't surpass 30m. While on the other hand the PS4 beat the One by only 5m in the USA. Despite the Xbox One debacle, there were still almost as many people in the Xbox ecosystem as there were in the PS ecosystem. Globally, the Xbox One was a disaster; but in the USA it absolutely still had a basis to have its successor beat the next PS, because a lifetime sales difference of 5m is not much in the US market.

You and some others try to portray history as if Microsoft was always doomed to lose everywhere, so Spencer did a good job actually. But that isn't true. It was doable to beat the PS5 in the USA, it's just that Spencer failed. So right now the Series trails the PS5 by around 10m units in the USA with the gap continuing to grow every month.

Mattrick supposedly leaving by himself isn't making things worse for Spencer specifically, but for Xbox management decisions in general. What I said was a statement about how poorly run that company is, if it's true that they didn't even want to fire Mattrick. In any case, whether or not Mattrick would get fired wasn't Spencer's decision to make, so this has no bearing on the thread's question.

I don't dislike Spencer. I am answering the thread's question, that's all. Mattrick did do a lot of damage to the Xbox console business, but he didn't deliberately attempt to kill it like Spencer is doing. That's why Spencer gets the vote.

I do not share your view on how easy or even doable it was to beat the PlayStation 5 after what happened last generation, and the domino effect from the rest of the world did not give any chance in the USA either. I won't repeat myself; you've got my point, and you disagree. Still, I also totally disagree with your assessment of the situation Xbox was in at the start of the generation and how deep they were (too deep) to do anything about it unless they came up with something miraculous. At this point, we can speculate about it, if you want, but it will lead nowhere, to be sure, as there is no way to prove anything.

Mattrick's firing is related to the thread, yes :) Similarly, I strongly disagree with you that it has no impact. After all, we are talking about who did the worst here and the fact that he left by himself to then go screw up Zimbra... It is definitely in line with the thread; it shows how bad a leader he was to start with.

Spencer did not help the console business (because it was not possible) and focused on other areas, but Mattrick made it impossible to recover in the first place; so there goes my vote :)

Let's agree to disagree.

I don't know. I did buy a Series X after skipping XBox One. But gamepass day 1 had me play the games on PC instead in bursts of signing up to gamepass. Best deal ever, 3 months of PC gamepass for $1 over the holiday season. Just not a good deal for Series X which has become my least played console of all time. 

I agree with Rol, XBox wasn't doomed forever, but day 1 gamepass on PC sealed the console business' fate. That and all the mismanagement. I bought the Series X to play Halo Infinite in co-op on TV with my wife (like we played previous Halo games together) Spencer never delivered on that. That really was the final nail for me. I had bought it for Forza 8 and Starfield as well but lost interest in them after Halo Infinite disappointments.

Mattrick set up the pass, Spencer scored the goal, sealing the console business' fate.



curl-6 said:
xboxgreen said:

I'm referring to Xbox 360 after 2009 in regards to software and the PS3 ended up having way better exclusives when it was all said and done. The multi-platform difference was small between ps3 and 360 after 2007 with a few exception and didn't mean anything when you have faulty hardware and have to pay for online. 

The 360 hardware issues went on way too long and it wasn't resolved until 2009 last I checked. The pay for online model still makes me mad to this day and wish Xbox will get rid of that crap.

Despite my name, I'm not a blind fanboy. I think playstation is a shell of its former self and has nothing like game pass to make it enticing to me.

Witcher 2, Alan Wake, Splinter Cell Conviction, Fable 3, Metro 2033, and Crackdown 2 were post-2009, in addition to Halo/Gears/Forza.

From late 2008 the Jasper model of 360 became available with a failure rate of under 4%; less than the fat PS3.

Crackdown 3 sucks and fable 3 was a disappointment. Metro 2033 was hardly a green game on metacritic during the 7th generation when journalists were more forgiving. Alan awake was a boring game.

Only good games you listed was splinter cell conviction and Witcher 2. Still pales in comparison to what PS3 offered and proving my point 360 second half was disappointing.

Also, I have to wait four years for Microsoft to fix their console and to buy it again? What a joke.

Last edited by xboxgreen - on 12 July 2025

curl-6 said:
Trentonater said:

the 360 era was something Don inhereted really. He can still be blamed for the second half of the 360's life having a total dearth of games after it started off so well. His biggest success of the Kinect ended up being a fad that held them back in the long run.

This I'd have to disagree with; the second half of the 360's life saw the likes of Gears of War 3 and Judgement, Halo Reach and 4, Forza 4 and Horizon, Alan Wake, Fable III, Splinter Cell Conviction, Crackdown 2, State of Decay, Trials Evolution, etc, as well as great third party titles like Mass Effect 2 + 3, Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, Portal 2, Witcher 2, etc.

that is the problem, the second half of the 360 was when microsoft got the reputation for only churning out samey gear halo and forza games with nothing else to offer. gear of war judgement, and halo 4? these weren't even well-recieved games by the fanbases... much less than mentioning the reception fable III and crackdown 2 got. and after 2010 especially they just had nothing to offer. Don was a death nell for xbox first party output and his decision included shutting down ensemble studios when they had never released an unsuccessful game.

There was a huge gap compared to both the variety and acclaim playstation first party was getting at the same time.



Trentonater said:
curl-6 said:

This I'd have to disagree with; the second half of the 360's life saw the likes of Gears of War 3 and Judgement, Halo Reach and 4, Forza 4 and Horizon, Alan Wake, Fable III, Splinter Cell Conviction, Crackdown 2, State of Decay, Trials Evolution, etc, as well as great third party titles like Mass Effect 2 + 3, Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, Portal 2, Witcher 2, etc.

that is the problem, the second half of the 360 was when microsoft got the reputation for only churning out samey gear halo and forza games with nothing else to offer. gear of war judgement, and halo 4? these weren't even well-recieved games by the fanbases... much less than mentioning the reception fable III and crackdown 2 got. and after 2010 especially they just had nothing to offer. Don was a death nell for xbox first party output and his decision included shutting down ensemble studios when they had never released an unsuccessful game.

There was a huge gap compared to both the variety and acclaim playstation first party was getting at the same time.

Exactly. Microsoft got way too comfortable. Phil Spencer did a lot for Xbox I thought. BC, Game Pass, acquiring first party studios, etc.

This year alone MS first party is publishing Doom, South of midnight, COD, Oblivion remake, Avowed, Ninja Gaiden 2 remake, Ninja Gaiden 4, Outer worlds 2. 

Way better than Xbox one generation and the last half of xbox 360 generation. I know people argue they aren't exclusive, but I don't care as long as it is on game pass day 1.



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I truly can't decide right now.
Don and Xbox had some really strong years but the Xbox One unveiling was beyond catastrophic. And even Phil shares a little blame for that too.
However, some of what happened at the end of Don's leadership can never be fixed.
Phil had some strong stuff early on, but Xbox has had so many issues for several years now at least.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 161 million (was 73 million, then 96 million, then 113 million, then 125 million, then 144 million, then 151 million, then 156 million)

PS5: 122 million (was 105 million, then 115 million) Xbox Series X/S: 38 million (was 60 million, then 67 million, then 57 million. then 48 million. then 40 million)

Switch 2: 120 million (was 116 million)

PS4: 120 mil (was 100 then 130 million, then 122 million) Xbox One: 51 mil (was 50 then 55 mil)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

"Let go your earthly tether, enter the void, empty and become wind." - Guru Laghima

I don't buy the whole ''Xbox one meant Xbox had no chance in the future against Playstation''. A console gaming company can turn around failures. I mean the Wii U was a bigger bomb from a sales perspective than anything Xbox has ever had, and yet they could turn it around with the Switch and sell incredible. It was totally in Xbox and Phil Spencer's power to be competitive against the PS5, whatever happened during the Xbox one era. They fact that they continued to decline from Xbox one was not inevitable.



Its close but probably Mattrick. He doomed the Xbox One before it even launched.



Trentonater said:
curl-6 said:

This I'd have to disagree with; the second half of the 360's life saw the likes of Gears of War 3 and Judgement, Halo Reach and 4, Forza 4 and Horizon, Alan Wake, Fable III, Splinter Cell Conviction, Crackdown 2, State of Decay, Trials Evolution, etc, as well as great third party titles like Mass Effect 2 + 3, Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, Portal 2, Witcher 2, etc.

that is the problem, the second half of the 360 was when microsoft got the reputation for only churning out samey gear halo and forza games with nothing else to offer. gear of war judgement, and halo 4? these weren't even well-recieved games by the fanbases... much less than mentioning the reception fable III and crackdown 2 got. and after 2010 especially they just had nothing to offer. Don was a death nell for xbox first party output and his decision included shutting down ensemble studios when they had never released an unsuccessful game.

I mean the vocal component of a fanbase that complains about things online is a tiny share of the overall audience; Halo 4 was the third highest selling retail video game of 2012. And a number of the listed games came after 2010.

xboxgreen said:
curl-6 said:

Witcher 2, Alan Wake, Splinter Cell Conviction, Fable 3, Metro 2033, and Crackdown 2 were post-2009, in addition to Halo/Gears/Forza.

From late 2008 the Jasper model of 360 became available with a failure rate of under 4%; less than the fat PS3.

Crackdown 3 sucks and fable 3 was a disappointment. Metro 2033 was hardly a green game on metacritic during the 7th generation when journalists were more forgiving. Alan awake was a boring game.

Only good games you listed was splinter cell conviction and Witcher 2. Still pales in comparison to what PS3 offered and proving my point 360 second half was disappointing.

Also, I have to wait four years for Microsoft to fix their console and to buy it again? What a joke.

Taste is subjective; many people liked games like Alan Wake, Fable 3, and Metro. It's just not accurate to say there was nothing outside of Halo/Gears/Forza.

RROD was a misstep, but for most of the 360's life it was solved.



curl-6 said:
Trentonater said:

that is the problem, the second half of the 360 was when microsoft got the reputation for only churning out samey gear halo and forza games with nothing else to offer. gear of war judgement, and halo 4? these weren't even well-recieved games by the fanbases... much less than mentioning the reception fable III and crackdown 2 got. and after 2010 especially they just had nothing to offer. Don was a death nell for xbox first party output and his decision included shutting down ensemble studios when they had never released an unsuccessful game.

I mean the vocal component of a fanbase that complains about things online is a tiny share of the overall audience; Halo 4 was the third highest selling retail video game of 2012. And a number of the listed games came after 2010.

xboxgreen said:

Crackdown 3 sucks and fable 3 was a disappointment. Metro 2033 was hardly a green game on metacritic during the 7th generation when journalists were more forgiving. Alan awake was a boring game.

Only good games you listed was splinter cell conviction and Witcher 2. Still pales in comparison to what PS3 offered and proving my point 360 second half was disappointing.

Also, I have to wait four years for Microsoft to fix their console and to buy it again? What a joke.

Taste is subjective; many people liked games like Alan Wake, Fable 3, and Metro. It's just not accurate to say there was nothing outside of Halo/Gears/Forza.

RROD was a misstep, but for most of the 360's life it was solved.

Those were the main AAA games from Microsoft.360 back half sucked full of disappointment and shovelware.