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Runa216 said:
KLXVER said:

Well that is usually how it goes though. People say they dont want to be lectured by developers about woke/DEI stuff in games and you are branded as intolerate and not liking diversity in games. I think thats where some of the conversations ends, because one side gets blamed for not wanting diversity at all and the other side dont want to talk to people they think are bigots. Its all about how you tell a story. Some have said that Elden Ring contains trans characters and I can see that, but I never felt like it was lecturing me about how I should feel about that. They just told a story and let me decide how I feel about it. When people say they dont want DEI in games, that usually doesnt mean they only want white people, they just dont want to be talked down to and told how they should feel about every situation containing that character. Its the same in movies. People hate preachy characters in film.

I do think people have a tendency to overact when they see what they consider "red flags" like a developer having said something on social media in the past or a female character looks a bit buff or whatever. Then theres people who make a living out of calling out "woke" developers and that can be a problem as well. Because they constantly need new "targets" to keep their views.

I dont think its as one sided as you do, but I can see where you are coming from. I think both gamers and developers/publishers need to let the game speak for itself. Not attack each other based on a trailer. At least not a trailer like The Witcher 4 or Intergalactic that doesnt really show much of what they are about.

But that's just it...if you 'don't want to be lectured about diversity', then...just don't buy the games. If you don't want to deal with that sort of stuff, you have the freedom to avoid it. But people always feel the need to aggressively whine and complain about it.

One of these actions (simply not buying it) is a message to the developers that you don't want a thing.

The other action (Loudly complaining about it) is a message to the world that THESE THINGS ARE NOT TO BE TOLERATED. 

One is a personal choice, the other is bigotry. That's the difference. and that's pretty wholly the difference. One is about personal choice, the other is a political statement that is largely based on ignorance and bigotry. 

I think you're right about "don''t buy the games", but this comes as a problem when you suddenly start switching characters in an established franchise. People don''t even like when a protagonist is switched to a character with similar background, even less when it's changed to a different one.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

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bdbdbd said:

Different people follow different religions in different ways. Different religions have different dogmas and If you reject the dogmas, you reject the religion. Different religions have different punishment for such blasphemy, on some it's death, some it's banishement from religious community and some it's nothing. You can find the punishment in some religions from it's dogmas, that are not to be questioned, and the religious community makes the god's will to happen. So, while you can intrepret the religion the way you want, it doesn't prevent you getting stoned to death, because the majority's intrepretation is that you need to get stoned for incorrect or non-dogmatic intrepretation.

It makes little sense to acknowledge that religions are made up by a culture, while being adamant that those things can't change. 

Judaism also talks about stoning people who don't follow certain rules, and yet that's clearly not followed today. 

And there has been pushback against stoning in a few of the countries, you're talking about.

If you want to argue that they're no longer "dogmatic Muslim" or something, sure, but plenty of people call themselves Muslim while being opposed to stoning in any circumstance. 

bdbdbd said:

If you define politics broadly enough, everything is politics. Most often entertainment views politics as an enemy, even if it would be on the "good" side, while protagonist is an individualist who rejects politics and breaks rules to achieve his goal. This is sonewhat easy for people to understand, because this is what they often experience on their everyday life - they just can't break the rules the same way the hero of the story does. 

I'm really not sure what you're considering politics. 



Machiavellian said:
TheTitaniumNub said:

Veilguard is the definition of what a woke game is, if you try to act like it isn't otherwise, you are some kind of weirdo, on the other hand, the anti woke crowd needs to calm the fuck down on some things, like Ghost of Yotei, screaming woke because it has a woman, insane. People need to wait for these games to release.

Just wondering by have you played the game.  What exactly within the game make it woke.  The reason I ask is because it seems like a lot of people bandwagon on a term when they haven't even played a game.  

I havent played it or any of the Dragon Age games for that matter, but with cutscenes like this:

Its just so blatant and forced. It feels preachy.



Machiavellian said:
bdbdbd said:

I think I addressed this already a few pages back: there's so much DEI policies in place that it's impossible to know if someone was hired for the role because of his or her otherness or was he or she just the best available pick for the role. This is why people cry woke when a game or a movie is bad and don't when it's good, because when it's good, it's a sign that the actor was the right pick for the role. This is why I used the new SW movies as examples that actually all do the same thing, but one is good and the others are not.

The DEI policies are put in place so that everyone can point out that they're not discriminating against minorities or women - so yes, you're right that people are fearful of the backlash for not having them if someone complains about discrimination. 

If you swap Cruise for Washington or the other way around, people complain if the movie is bad and don't complain if it's good. Some people will always complain no matter what, but the "go woke, go broke" didn't really come out of thin air, i.e. few pundits from internet forums. 

Naw you did not address it, you limited it to race when the term cover so much scope.  The thing is since you do not know why even waste the energy assuming or for that matter caring.  Its the very nature that people do not know which frighten them and the only way it can frighten them is if they feel affected.  Instead of looking at the person and judging them on what they do, if you start out with assuming they got a role because of their gender or race you already set your mind into a negative frame of thought and thus all you see is negative.

DEI was put into place because there was clear evidence of prejudice and discrimination in the work place.  There are so many cases out there that it would take you years to go through them all.  The people that do not know about it are usually the people who are not effected.  They live their lives thinking everyone is treated equal and have equal chances to succeed but the reality is not.  While DEI isn't a great solution just recognizing that discrimination and prejudice does exist and trying to make an effort to not have it prevalent in your workforce is always a good step in the right direction. 

As stated, people will always find something to complain about.  If they can use race, gender or age they would.  It really does not matter who the person is because while you may believe Cruise and Washington are great actors, there is a slew of people who think different and its usually them who jump on the net to voice their displeasure the most.  Negativity drives way more traffic than positive feedback.  You only have to look towards Twitter and Facebook not to mention a few other social media sites to see which topic get the most people commenting.  A negative story will go viral way faster than any positive one.

I'm not sure if you try to argue for or against what I've been writing. Yes, people have emotional attachment, this is why so many complain about these "race or gender swaps" to a franchise they're attached to.

People like Washington in the first place because he wasn't a race or gender swap for a role, but a guy who suited his roles. This is also why Cruise is popular actor. You need new franchises with the actors you'd like to see, instead of trying to replace the old ones.

You're right: someone's always going to complain and think otherness is a reason for his/her failures. People complain movie is bad because the protagonist was of wrong sex or ethnicity, other people complain people didn't go to see a bad movie because the protagonist was of wrong sex or wrong ethnicity. So, did the people go to see the movie to whom it was targeted at based on the protagonist's otherness? No, because the movie was bad.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

KLXVER said:
Machiavellian said:

Just wondering by have you played the game.  What exactly within the game make it woke.  The reason I ask is because it seems like a lot of people bandwagon on a term when they haven't even played a game.  

I havent played it or any of the Dragon Age games for that matter, but with cutscenes like this:

Its just so blatant and forced. It feels preachy.

Ok, then its pretty obvious you just fall into the same category of woke is anything I do not like.  Got it.



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I could give several example of woke games and will gladly do so if anybody likes, however expect something that some people might find at least somewhat offensive.



Machiavellian said:
KLXVER said:

I havent played it or any of the Dragon Age games for that matter, but with cutscenes like this:

Its just so blatant and forced. It feels preachy.

Ok, then its pretty obvious you just fall into the same category of woke is anything I do not like.  Got it.

What do you like about this cutscene?



bdbdbd said:
Machiavellian said:

Naw you did not address it, you limited it to race when the term cover so much scope.  The thing is since you do not know why even waste the energy assuming or for that matter caring.  Its the very nature that people do not know which frighten them and the only way it can frighten them is if they feel affected.  Instead of looking at the person and judging them on what they do, if you start out with assuming they got a role because of their gender or race you already set your mind into a negative frame of thought and thus all you see is negative.

DEI was put into place because there was clear evidence of prejudice and discrimination in the work place.  There are so many cases out there that it would take you years to go through them all.  The people that do not know about it are usually the people who are not effected.  They live their lives thinking everyone is treated equal and have equal chances to succeed but the reality is not.  While DEI isn't a great solution just recognizing that discrimination and prejudice does exist and trying to make an effort to not have it prevalent in your workforce is always a good step in the right direction. 

As stated, people will always find something to complain about.  If they can use race, gender or age they would.  It really does not matter who the person is because while you may believe Cruise and Washington are great actors, there is a slew of people who think different and its usually them who jump on the net to voice their displeasure the most.  Negativity drives way more traffic than positive feedback.  You only have to look towards Twitter and Facebook not to mention a few other social media sites to see which topic get the most people commenting.  A negative story will go viral way faster than any positive one.

I'm not sure if you try to argue for or against what I've been writing. Yes, people have emotional attachment, this is why so many complain about these "race or gender swaps" to a franchise they're attached to.

People like Washington in the first place because he wasn't a race or gender swap for a role, but a guy who suited his roles. This is also why Cruise is popular actor. You need new franchises with the actors you'd like to see, instead of trying to replace the old ones.

You're right: someone's always going to complain and think otherness is a reason for his/her failures. People complain movie is bad because the protagonist was of wrong sex or ethnicity, other people complain people didn't go to see a bad movie because the protagonist was of wrong sex or wrong ethnicity. So, did the people go to see the movie to whom it was targeted at based on the protagonist's otherness? No, because the movie was bad.

So why do people complain about rather a race or gender is swapped.  Why do they even care?  What concern do they have really.  Its not about if the person being swapped is good or not in the role because they start complaining before they even see the full content.  It doesn't even have to be a franchise these people are attached to since we see this new games and movies all the time.  

The original Equalizer was portrayed by a white male in the original series.  How do you know that Denzel was not race swapped into the role.  The fact that you accept Denzel and did not question him being in the role is more telling then anything else.  Could it be that you didn't care because you like Denzel as an actor?  So we continue to just go back to its not about the race or gender but instead whether or not you just like the pick of the person who will be playing the role.  

No people complain before they even see a movie or experience a game so they have no context or reference if the actor or character isn't right for a role.  Instead they lead with their own prejudice and discrimination on what they believe should played by that role and once they have formed that mental image, it takes a act of GOD to make them think different.

Case in point, Queen Latifah is playing the TV series of the Equalizer.  I wonder if before anyone has seen even the first episode, if they did not complain about it being woke since we have not only a race but also a gender swap.



KLXVER said:
Machiavellian said:

Ok, then its pretty obvious you just fall into the same category of woke is anything I do not like.  Got it.

What do you like about this cutscene?

It has no context for me since I have not played the game.  I do not know why they are having this conversation.  I do not have any reference to the characters or the plot of the game or how the game attempts to grow or give context to each of the characters.  If anything its exactly what I see a lot of people do.  They will find some out of context video then make a whole story based on that short bit which is what I feel you are doing.  You have not played the game. You have no real understanding of the characters, how they grow and develop within the RPG or even what lead to that single scene but you make a determination on the whole game based on your perceived bias.  I am sure I could pull a gay scene from the Mass Effect and build a whole scenario from that point but would it be representative of the whole game.



Machiavellian said:
bdbdbd said:

I'm not sure if you try to argue for or against what I've been writing. Yes, people have emotional attachment, this is why so many complain about these "race or gender swaps" to a franchise they're attached to.

People like Washington in the first place because he wasn't a race or gender swap for a role, but a guy who suited his roles. This is also why Cruise is popular actor. You need new franchises with the actors you'd like to see, instead of trying to replace the old ones.

You're right: someone's always going to complain and think otherness is a reason for his/her failures. People complain movie is bad because the protagonist was of wrong sex or ethnicity, other people complain people didn't go to see a bad movie because the protagonist was of wrong sex or wrong ethnicity. So, did the people go to see the movie to whom it was targeted at based on the protagonist's otherness? No, because the movie was bad.

So why do people complain about rather a race or gender is swapped.  Why do they even care?  What concern do they have really.  Its not about if the person being swapped is good or not in the role because they start complaining before they even see the full content.  It doesn't even have to be a franchise these people are attached to since we see this new games and movies all the time.  

The original Equalizer was portrayed by a white male in the original series.  How do you know that Denzel was not race swapped into the role.  The fact that you accept Denzel and did not question him being in the role is more telling then anything else.  Could it be that you didn't care because you like Denzel as an actor?  So we continue to just go back to its not about the race or gender but instead whether or not you just like the pick of the person who will be playing the role.  

No people complain before they even see a movie or experience a game so they have no context or reference if the actor or character isn't right for a role.  Instead they lead with their own prejudice and discrimination on what they believe should played by that role and once they have formed that mental image, it takes a act of GOD to make them think different.

Case in point, Queen Latifah is playing the TV series of the Equalizer.  I wonder if before anyone has seen even the first episode, if they did not complain about it being woke since we have not only a race but also a gender swap.

It seems like a cheap way to do that though, sort of how some comedians rely on d!ck jokes to sell a ticket.  

Why not create original stories with the races and genders that you would like to portray?