This reminds of a Bavarian politician's answer to the accusation that he might be an anti-vaxxer. He answered, "No, I am a farmer."

I'm not going to say that America hasn't made many foreign policy mistakes over the years, including the Democrats and they have many war-hawks in the Democrat Party (side-note, Trump is one too) but in the context of Russia-Ukraine, throwing Ukraine under the bus and rewarding Russia is exactly the kind of thing that will lead to more wars, did we learn nothing from how effective appeasement was in WW2?

Shit, I don't like Obama's foreign policy, it was marked with drone striking the fuck out of everything but it's thanks to Obama's weak inaction that we're here in the first place, Obama didn't stoke the flames with Russia when they invaded Ukraine in 2014. He did the exact opposite! He gave Russia a slap on the wrist and moved on, it's thanks to our inaction in 2014 that we're here today.

In the case of Biden, I don't think you've seen how critical I've been of Biden in the Russia-Ukraine thread, I always get a laugh when people say Biden is stoking the flames with Russia when in actual fact it's the exact opposite, all the Europeans in the Russia-Ukraine thread will tell you how cowardly Biden has consistently been during the course of the war in the name of "escalation management"

It needs reminding that.

• UK was the first to send ATGMs.
• UK broke the "taboo" of sending MBTs which America spent months debating and we sent the first tanks.
• UK broke the "taboo" of sending long-range missiles which America spent months debating, then still didn't send long-range missiles until months after UK and France did.
• America has yet to send a single F-16, those have all been European donations so far.
• It took months of debate for America to finally allow Ukraine to use American weapons on Russia soil, months after dozens of European countries already gave Ukraine their approval.
• For months now; Ukraine, UK, Poland, Czech Republic, The Baltics (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), The Nordics (Finland, Denmark) have been begging America to allow long-range missile strikes on Russia and only now there seems to be a breakthrough.
• America banned UK from allowing UK made Storm Shadow missiles to be used on Russia despite UK wanting to allow Ukraine to do so.

All these developments have been directly linked to Jake Sullivan and Biden in the name of "escalation management" to avoid upsetting Russia too much, despite dozens of Russia's so-called "red-lines" in the past being broken and Russia doing precisely fuck all about it, there's even a Wiki list on Russia's red-lines now they've became that much of a joke.

Almost every single country in Europe (including Ukraine, obviously) with the exception of Germany and Hungary have been more aggressive towards wanting to deal with Russia than America has. Some countries even want to shoot down Russian missiles and drones that enter their airspace (notably, Poland, Baltics and Romania) but they can't do so without support from their allies which they don't yet have.

I've actually been blasting Biden pretty damn hard in the Russia thread for his constant attempts to NOT stoke the flames, because I do not believe there's any flames to stoke when it comes to Russia. Except if we were to march on Moscow, Lmao. Obviously then, that would be a flame. But nobody is suggesting that.

Now watch as Ukraine uses Storm Shadow missile on Russia for the first time, watch as Russia does nothing, once again, like the dozens of other times they've threatened us with nukes and consequences, watch as we realise that we wasted months of debate and countless Ukrainians lives for fuck all once again because Russia scares America too much.

Biden's foreign policy with Israel and Ukraine needs to be reversed, Israel needs more rules and restrictions on it and they need to stop sending Israel offensive weaponry, Ukraine needs less rules and restrictions on it and they need to send Ukraine better weaponry. Ukraine is fighting a far tougher enemy than Israel fighting a bunch of Hamas/Hezbollah terrorists, Ukraine follows rules and international law far better than Israel does. Israel is the one who can defend itself, Ukraine can't without support (but will die trying). But for some reason Americans are eternally cucked onto Israel.

I'm not asking for them to throw Ukraine under the bus, I'm asking for a world where America gets out of it completely and we actually settle this ourselves. Russias biggest request is NATO not encroaching on their border, why can't we give them that? So many people have to die but we can't give them something so basic? Why?

They are stoking the flames though, they're stoking them since the start. I'm as sick with Americans as I am with Russia. They fucking escalate and have excavated every part of this nonsense when there is EASY diplomatic responses to ease tensions. Easy ones. Take NATO away from the border, reduce military bases, be fucking civil. 

Russia doesn't scare America one bit, the American media wants Americans scared. Fuck them both.

Not once have I seen any respect for young Russian soldiers sent into this shit, or any empathy towards them at all. Same old shit, kill the young for the old man's mistakes. I want to see Kamala/Trump come out and say this is an immense fuck up but we can fix it outside of the Battlefield, there's no need for young people to die. We can sort this over the table. 

Ohh, so you agree with me that there's more to it than covid.  You can reconcile your contradictions later. 

If we must platitude, I got my research from Brookings, an unbiased think-tank cited equally by liberals and conservatives.

It was never about the context, but thank you, I agree.  I never blamed the current administration, rapsuperstar made the claim that it wasn't their fault so the burden of proof was asked of him.  rapsuperstar made the claim of it being *only* covid that caused inflation and I was challenging him on it.  

Biden ought to look up this: China's Final Warning - Wikipedia

This is Russia but he consistently falls for it because contrary to what some claim in this matter, he and Jake are terrified of escalation and quite frankly I can't wait to see Jake Sullivan given the boot, I think Biden has been a brilliant domestic president but his foreign policy over the past year has been quite awful despite how strong it started, his brain rotted on foreign policy matters since Israel's invasion.

He became more focused on escalation management for Ukraine instead of winning and with Israel let them do whatever the fuck they wanted, even Ukraine was complaining about how much Israel gets away with while they have to follow a thousand different stupid rules and be the perfect little good boy because America is scared of Russia's nukes. Even Lukashenko says Russia wouldn't use nukes ever because it would never benefit them and he's Putin's puppet, Lol.

If foreign policy positions of Israel/Ukraine were reversed then I'd say Biden would have been looked back on very positively by future historians but they're not. Maybe he still might though because Americans largely don't care about foreign policy.

Having said that, I can see pretty damn clearly that Trump-Vance would be 100x worse for Ukraine than Harris-Walz based on past history and their own damn statements, worse for Europe, worse for American allies and yes, even worse for Palestine (which is already horrific). I hope after election people can put pressure on Harris to step up for Palestine and block offensive aid to Israel and hopefully her national security advisor isn't as much of a coward as Jake Sullivan when it comes to Ukraine.

But uh, I think Americans in this thread are sick of foreign policy talk...I've said all this shit in the Russia-Ukraine thread anyway. Just making clear that I don't think Democrats are some angels when it comes to foreign policy but I know Republicans will be far worse. 

Now...Storm Shadow ban will be lifted soon according to reports, if people say to me that Biden was right to be cautious then I'll just suggest to them that they just wait and see what Russia does in response to a British missile hitting their country, I'm betting that I'll still be on VGChartz next month and UK won't be a nuked wasteland.

Countries are allowed to be allies with whoever they choose.  Looking into joining NATO doesn't give Russia permission to attack Ukraine.  Was the United States trying to get Georgia to join NATO before Russia invaded them?  It doesn't matter who America allies with, hell if Russia wants to hold hands and be allies we would have no issues being friends. The USA has no intentions of attacking Russia or China, and neither did Ukraine.

Thucydides trap then. 

Do you work for Russia on presenting missinformation?  Or are you simply tricked by the Russian disinformation that is rampant everywhere?

I'm not asking for them to throw Ukraine under the bus, I'm asking for a world where America gets out of it completely and we actually settle this ourselves.

This is the same thing, if America gets out of it then Ukraine loses, as simple as that and then Russia has no reason to negotiate, they'll just take all of Ukraine because why the hell wouldn't they? Lol.

Russias biggest request is NATO not encroaching on their border, why can't we give them that?

1. Because Russia does not get to say what other countries can and can't do, Russia does not get to decide if Ukraine, an independent country, wants to join NATO. If Ukraine wants to apply for NATO then as an independent country they have the right to do so.

Key thing being apply though, Ukraine already tried to join NATO before, Germany blocked it. Because every single country in NATO must say "YES" for another country to join, it's not just America running the party like some Americans love to believe

2. Because Russia invading Ukraine because "NATO" is a bullshit excuse and not the reason they invaded at all, it's the reason they use to rally their domestic audience into fighting though, Russia sells it to the public as "Russia vs Evil West" not "Russia vs Ukraine" when the common enemy is the big scary NATO looking to hurt Russia then it's an easier sell to justify a war.

Putin has straight up pulled out maps in his reasons for invading Ukraine and straight up said that Ukraine as a country doesn't exist, Ukrainian culture doesn't exist, it was and always will be Russian. Russia has said they invaded because of chemical biolabs. Russia have said they invaded because of Ukraine Nazis. Russia have said they invaded because Ukraine was about to attack them.

This is what Russia does, don't fall for it, they throw out so much bullshit that it doesn't matter what the truth is, all that matters is they're confusing people and now nobody knows what to believe, that has been a common tactic of Russian propaganda. The truth of the matter is this is ones mans mad desire to land-grab some more land and restore the glorious Russian empire before his death (and Ukraine has a lot of natural resources).

NATO is a defensive alliance, it was never a threat to Russia, NATO's Article 5 has only ever been used once in its entire history, not against Russia.

3. There's a reason why the former Soviet union countries despise Russia and why they're in NATO and Russia only has itself to blame.

4. Russia already bordered NATO prior to Ukraine's invasion via Estonia and Latvia.

5. Russia did fuck all when Finland joined NATO, in fact, they moved troops away from the border, so much for being afraid of NATO.

6. Russia moved the HQ of their Baltic Fleet to Kaliningrad and moved nuclear capable carrying missiles to Kaliningrad, a country situated between the NATO countries Lithuania and Poland. Do you see NATO invading Kaliningrad for this reason? Nope.

7. Russia has moved nukes to Belarus, a country bordering with NATO countries Latvia, Lithuania, Poland. Do you see us invading Belarus? Nope.

8. To this day, no NATO countries have nukes bordering Russia, meanwhile, Russia has nukes bordering multiple NATO countries. Do you see us invading Russia? Nope.

9. Ukraine was nowhere close to joining NATO because a single country would have blocked it, why? Because Russia already invaded Ukraine in 2014 via Crimea and Donbas and America and Germany definitely would have voted "NO" to a country currently in conflict joining NATO.

You see how all these reasons show how utterly bullshit Russia's NATO excuse is?

So many people have to die but we can't give them something so basic? Why?

That's for Ukraine to decide.

They are stoking the flames though, they're stoking them since the start.

Did you read anything I said about all the countless examples of Biden actively going out of his way not to stoke the flames? We have Europeans in the Russia-Ukraine thread who will be happy to see Biden leave for this exact reason, me included. I'll say again, almost all of Europe has been more aggressive towards Russia than America has.

When there is EASY diplomatic responses to ease tensions.

Yeah, I'm sure it's that easy, Ukraine is just dying for no reason at all, it's so easy to stop Russia slaughtering their country, by simply giving up their independence, their ability to defend themselves in the future (what NATO military bases are in Ukraine?) because Russia pinkie promises not to attack again. Read up on the Budapest Memorandum where Russia promised Ukraine security agreements in exchange for Ukraine surrendering their nuclear weapons to Russia. That shows how little Russia's word means.

Take NATO away from the border, reduce military bases, be fucking civil.

And what of Russia? Why aren't you demanding they remove all military from Kaliningrad, their nukes from Belarus, their military away from Finland and their armies out of Ukraine? The only country not being civil in this equation is Russia, they're the ones who chose to fucking invade Ukraine and lets for a second imagine that Russia was paranoid about NATO, I don't give a fuck! That doesn't give you an excuse to slaughter thousands!

I don't get to go punch my neighbour in the face because I'm paranoid after he joined the neighbourhood watch!

People don't get to come into your house, slaughter half your family, then keep half your house because they're paranoid!

Not once have I seen any respect for young Russian soldiers sent into this shit, or any empathy towards them at all.

Eh, I saw a lot of sympathy at first, that sympathy was quickly lost after Bucha and the countless of other Russian atrocities committed on Ukrainians. Quite frankly, I didn't have sympathy for Nazi soldiers, I don't have sympathy for Russians going to slaughter Ukrainians. I don't have sympathy for the soldiers directing missiles on fucking children and innocent people. I'm sick of hearing that this is "Putin's war" at this stage, nah, this is Russia's war.

I want to see Kamala/Trump come out and say this is an immense fuck up but we can fix it outside of the Battlefield

We tried to do that in 2022 prior to the full-scale invasion, America, France and Germany were begging Russia not to invade, Zelenskyy told France to ask Russia not to do this, Russia didn't listen to our pleading. Russia didn't give a fuck about compromise. We've fucking tried diplomacy multiple times. How'd the diplomacy go after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 (Crimea?) How'd the diplomacy go when Russia invaded Chechnya (Twice). How'd the diplomacy go when Russia invaded Afghanistan? How'd the diplomacy go when Russia invaded Georgia?

How'd the diplomacy go when Russia dropped a fucking deadly nerve agent on UK soil. How'd the diplomacy go when Russia assassinated multiple people in multiple NATO countries? How'd the diplomacy go when Russia sabotaged military facilities in Europe? How'd the diplomacy go when Russia backed Wagner attacked American troops in Syria? Russia straight up tried to assassinate the CEO of Rheinmetall, one of the biggest military companies in Europe and vital for German defence.

I'll tell you, we looked the other way, we stuck our hands in the sand for "peace" and we let Russia get away with whatever the fuck it wanted because we were too scared or too $$ focused to do anything about it. Diplomacy did shit. For the past 20 years we've been placating and trying to appease Russia and for what? For them to fucking invade a European country and slaughter thousands "because NATO bad"

Nah Russia can go fuck themselves.

I'm just me. Myself.