shavenferret said:
Jumpin said:
Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right. Out of curiosity, what consequences should comedians face for daring to put on a comedy show that offends you? |
That's a really good question, because the people here keep saying that they don't want laws, but they do want some kinds of restrictions on this. The only way to accomplish that would be through something like the FCC (in america) or some godawful board for entertainment. I've always hated those kinds of standards because they are always changing with the times according to the values that the public likes.  |
IT's so funny watching you folks jump through hoops to misrepresent things.
Nobody's saying there needs to be laws to keep comedians from toeing the line. Nobody's saying that people need to be outright punished from a legal standpoint. Just that in general there needs to be consequences for going over the line, especially if done in a way that's not an honest mistake or is malicious.
See, it's like the fall-back on 'freedom of speech'. In America, you have that first amendment right, which gives you freedom of speech. What people seem to think it means is that you can say whatever you want without any repercussions. that since you legally are allowed to say whatever you want, that it means NOBODY can tell you off, or that your speech is protected by law. that's not what it means. Freedom of speech just means that you are LEGALLY allowed to speak your mind or have opinions or what-have-you. It means the GOVERNMENT can't quash your speech. It means the law isn't there to suppress your right to free speech. You are still subject to other people who also have free speech or are expressing their own freedoms.
Legally you are allowed to drop N-Bombs and say all the offensive shit you want. Legally.
That doesn't mean that others have to put up with it. That doesn't mean others have to allow you into their business or homes. that doesn't mean you're not going to get fired from your job because your employer doesn't want to associate with someone who says that thing. That doesn't mean you're the victim if your family disowns you.
Freedom of speech gives you the right to say what you want. It doesn't give you freedom of consequences for the things you say.
and there are limits on freedom of speech when the speech is meant to elicit harm or encourage harassment. You have freedom of speech but you can't make false bomb threats in a crowded theater because that can get people hurt. There are also libel laws and slander laws that mean that people are protected from having people knowingly lie about them or publish falsehoods, especially if those lies lead to harm to the person in question.
I'm not 100% sure how it works in America but in Canada we have similar laws but they're slightly more restrictive, in that you can't spout what is considered hate speech in public forums because doing so is done with the explicit purpose to dehumanize people and vilify them in order to justify violent acts or cruelty or harassment. You have free speech, but not when that freedom of speech directly harms others or incites harm or encourages harassment.
Which is where comedy comes into play. Comedy is supposed to be funny. It's supposed to make people laugh, it's supposed to be a positive thing. so it is, like so many other things, subject to the first amendment and free speech laws. You can make an off-colour joke, or play with prejudice or toe the line of decency, for sure. But the thing is, a lot of what I see as 'comedy' isn't comedy. It's hate speech with a laugh track and nothing more. When someone like George Carlin makes offensive comedy, it's FUNNY and usually 'punching up', as it was. he uses absurdity to make a point. He uses violent imagery to make you think. He uses his offensive comedy to target people who are doing cruel things or abusing power. bo Burnham is another example, using offensive language and brash humour to point out absurdity or to poke fun at himself in a way that is clear he's not trying to target those who suffer. when he makes jokes using the word 'fag', he's not doing it to stomp on the queer community, he's doing it to show the absurdity of those who use the term.
intent matters. and so much of this thread seems to completely strip most of the 'offensive comedy' of its nuance and context in order to use the comedic blanket to justify it. to genuinely act like just because they can legally say certain things, that they should be allowed to do so without repercussions.
but the problem is that so much of what is included in this particular brand of humour is just hate speech. it's targeting people who are already targets, not those in power. and it's doing so in a way meant to dehumanize them and make them appear inferior or messed up, which further justifies targeting them. The intent matters. the context and nuance matters. There's a world of difference between making a joke about silly little quirks in trans people's lives vs making a joke where the punch line is 'hah she has a dick, isn't that gross'?
And when hate speech is said with the intent to dehumanize or illegitimize or disrespect people, or if the hate speech is normalized through the veil of comedy, it's arguably more insidious than just lynching people on crosses while in Klan hoods because it's not as blatant so not as easy to call out.
So yeah, 'what consequences' you ask? Exactly what happens. If you make comedy where the targets are vulnerable people and the audience as a whole says 'nope' to that and collectively cancels them (or at least attempts to), then so be it. that's appropriate. They are entitled to their free speech but that does not mean they are entitled to an audience or money or success if most people agree that their humour comes from a place of ill intent or smug superiority. And further, if the hate speech masquerading as comedy in any way incites violence against people, that's a goddamn crime.
The fact that you and so many others actively try to ignore this nuance or context in order to treat the issue as a black-and-white all-or-nothing discussion is emblematic of everything wrong with modern political discourse. The only way you can make an argument that sounds reasonable is to assume the solution is binary and anything that's not permissive to your stance in particular is wrong and worthy of being ostracized. I see it in these debates every time and it's always dumb as hell. It's forced oversimplification and it's required to make any sense.
And nobody's saying comedians can't be offensive. but like I've said many times before and will continue to do so in the future, the humour needs to have a point beyond just pointing and laughing at vulnerable groups. And if it does do that, then it needs to be treated as the hate speech it is.
you shouldn't be allowed to say whatever you want without consequences, be it through public rejection, professional suicide, or if the speech is targeted enough, criminal charges.
And the fact I know that half of you are going to point and say 'see you just want people you disagree with put in jail' or some variation of that proves how little you understand the context of the discussion and I will not be responding farther to it.
Time changes everything. culture changes. Language changes. Comedy changes. Everything changes with time. IT's important to be able to keep up, something that conservatives tend to categorically reject. And that becomes so much of the discussion about comedy because you keep hearing specifically conservative comedians saying 'that new gender thing is fucked up, right?' then expecting applause. That's not funny, it's ignorance being projected through mild hate speech. And if you're dumb enough to believe that, then you deserve to be called out for it and you are not entitled to an audience.
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