Goddamn...Some, especially left wing, Americans thinking their country rules the world and every country in NATO, especially in eastern Europe, is a brainless idiot who can't think for themselves, aren't in NATO because of Russian aggression but in it because America is controlling them. The war on UKRAINE was provoked because of AMERICA? Ukraine must be sitting here being slaughtered like "Wtf? When did we provoke Russia?"

There's zero wrong with Ukraine wanting to join NATO, a defensive organisation. Russia doesn't get to decide that and there's nothing provoking Russia with that, the same Russia that has CSTO, a NATO equivalent, the same Russia that pulled troops from the Finnish border, the same Russia which let Finland join NATO and thus massively expanded its border with NATO, the same Russia that has nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad.

Firstly, watch your language at the start bud. Don’t wanna read that.

Second, chill lol. We’re discussing worldly affairs, and I can assure that neither you nor I are 100% hitting the nail-on-the-head. There’s probably more to it than NATO provocation, just as there is more to it than USSR glory.

As far as there being nothing wrong with Ukraine wanting the join NATO, I want to ask you this: What would joining NATO provide for Ukraine? List all the benefits they’d receive. I know for one, Ukraine would be allowed to place nukes on Russia’s border. With this on its own, there is reason for Russia to be outraged at this prospect: Are we forgetting the Cuban Missile Crisis? (And I say these things not to say Russia is just, but rather to explain Russia’s thought-process.) So with this in mind, I personally do not believe Ukraine has the right to join NATO. Nor should they be invited. All this does is put Ukraine in greater danger — we are poking a sleeping bear known as Russia — and increased the likelihood of nuclear fallout (let me remind you that we are talking about Russia, the country with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world).

I don't care much what you want, Lol. It's frustrating to have to debate over and over again with people vomiting Russian propaganda which in turn hurts Ukraine support and diverts the blame away from the real aggressor. You're uncomfortable with the language I use? Aww, too bad, I don't give a shit when there's an entire country being slaughtered and you're over here like "It's America's fault! Lets leave Ukraine to die!"

You criticise America's foreign policy which is fine, America has quite a shit foreign policy history but don't pretend like you have some moral superiority because you have the ability to stick your head in the sand and allow an entire country to be slaughtered when America has the ability to prevent it all because "America bad" For a rare moment in America's foreign policy history, they are doing objectively the right thing and you want them to say "fuck Ukraine, fuck our allies, fuck the international agreement we made with Ukraine" because *checks notes* America supported Ukraine wanting to join a defensive alliance.

"What would joining NATO provide for Ukraine?"

Protection against Russia's aggression which started before the 2022 invasion, the Russia-Ukraine war started in 2014, it was only the full-scale invasion which started in 2022 meaning Ukraine had no chance of joining NATO between 2014-2022 until Russia was fully pushed out of Ukraine territory or Ukraine gave up Crimea and Donbas because many countries in NATO do not want a country to join which is in current conflict.

Why do you think most countries in the Baltics, Nordics, Eastern and Central Europe joined NATO? Why do you think most countries in the Baltics, Nordics, Eastern and Central Europe hate Russia? Why do you think the neutral Sweden joined NATO? Half of European countries are in NATO because of Russia's history, because of Russian aggression because of Russia's history of committing atrocities and invading its neighbours.

NATO is a DEFENSIVE organisation, Russia has nothing to fear unless Russia attacks FIRST. Russia themselves, Putin himself, has said the reason for invading Ukraine was because Ukraine doesn't exist as a country and he considers it still part of Russia, aka the Soviet Union which he wants to restore, alongside that, Donbas is rich in heavy metal resources.

"I know for one, Ukraine would be allowed to place nukes on Russia’s border."

• Blue = Nuclear Free.
• Red = Nuclear Armed.
• Orange = Nuclear Sharing.
• Yellow = NPT.

NPT = The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, commonly known as the Non-Proliferation Treaty or NPT, is an international treaty whose objective is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons and weapons technology, to promote cooperation in the peaceful uses of nuclear energy, and to further the goal of achieving nuclear disarmament and general and complete disarmament.

To date, Finland does not host American nukes, Estonia does not host American nukes, Latvia does not host American nukes, Lithuania does not host American nukes, Poland does not host American nukes, Slovakia does not host American nukes, Hungary does not host American nukes, Romania does not host American nukes.

Basically the entire eastern flank of NATO does not host America nukes, despite there being multiple countries which border Russia.

You know who has nuclear weapons? Russia. You can quite clearly see right there "Kaliningrad, Russia" sat between Poland and Lithuania, should be invade them? Should we slaughter Kaliningrad? Would you be saying the same shit you're saying here if the West decided to slaughter everyone in Kaliningrad? That it was Russia's fault for provoking us?

Meanwhile Russia: Belarus Leader Says Russian Nuclear Weapons Shipments Completed, Raising Concern in Region

I've already told you this but I'll say it again, Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for peace, in a security agreement with Russia, UK and America that if Ukraine gives up its nuclear weapons, it would be protected against any aggressors, that it would have security guarantees in exchange for giving up the biggest deterrence in the world and who broke that agreement? The Budapest Memorandum? Oh right, Russia.

Are we forgetting the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Not at all and thanks to Russian aggression, Poland now wants American nukes in its country for the first time ever.

Polish President Wants NATO Nukes for Deterring Russia

But you're fooling yourself and don't know much about America's capabilities (or Russia's) if you believe that these countries need to be bordered with each other in order to pose a threat, America and Russia are quite capable of lobbing a nuclear missile halfway across the entire world, if America wanted to nuke Russia, it could do so quite easily even without nukes sitting on their border.

(And I say these things not to say Russia is just, but rather to explain Russia’s thought-process.)

You aren't explaining Russia's thought process because this isn't Russia's thought process and just one of many propaganda excuses that they've used in the past because it's useful on people like yourself (you've straight up said in this thread that America should just abandon Ukraine so the propaganda is working on you) and useful for their domestic audience, the real reason is a lot more simple and why almost every imperialist invades another country, not because they felt "threatened" but because they wanted to expand their influence/power through military means and also a resource grab.

So with this in mind, I personally do not believe Ukraine has the right to join NATO.

Tough shit, Ukraine is an independent country, it has the right to want to join NATO, it has the right to be able to apply to join NATO. What it doesn't have is a guarantee to join NATO because every single country in NATO has to say yes for a single country to join.

Nor should they be invited.

Nah, they should, because NATO is the only way to protect them from Russian aggression.

All this does is put Ukraine in greater danger

Despite the fact that Ukraine was absolutely nowhere near joining NATO before Russia invaded, okay. I'm sure "joining NATO" is also to blame for Russia slaughtering innocents in Syria, turning Chechnya into a wasteland, invading Georgia, etc.

We are poking a sleeping bear known as Russia

No, we aren't. It's a better example to say that the rabid "bear" is awake and currently slaughtering Ukrainians and it needs to be put down.

But whenever NATO actually stands up to Russia, they NEVER back up their threats, Russia has threatened the UK about a 100 times, there's literally lists of Russia threatening to nuke countries for this and that and they never go through with it, Russia is a bully and a coward and always backs down when someone of equal power actually stands up against them.

Russia threatened us and said that ATGMs were a redline, that MBTs were a redline, that long-range missiles were a redline, that modern jets were a redline, every single redline has been broken, they said that western troops in Ukraine was a redline, the UK has frigging special forces in Ukraine helping them to operate Storm Shadow and as far as I can see as a Brit, UK is still standing.

This "sleeping bear" bullshit is exactly what Russia wants people to believe, they want people to be fearful of standing up to them so that they in turn can do whatever they like and kill whoever they like, take whatever they like because nobody will stand up to them out of misguided fear. 

Let me remind you that we are talking about Russia

Let me remind YOU that we're talking about Putin, a dude who doesn't sit near people on a table out of fear of assassination attempts, who fled Moscow to St Petersburg as Wagner marched on Moscow and what did he do at the time? Fuck all, he negotiated with a militia leader who invaded his country and almost invaded Moscow only to cowardly kill him later while he was flying over Moscow in his personal jet.

We're talking about a country full to the brim of Oligarchs who have western properties all over. Nobody in Russia wants a nuclear war, especially not the coward Putin who quite clearly wants to live and won't live if a nuclear war happens, the only way a nuclear war happens is if the West marches on Moscow which we wouldn't need to do, we only need to push Russia out of Ukraine.

Everything you suggest just results in Ukraine losing, the entire country falling and millions being killed, deported, imprisoned, etc. You are rightfully angry about America's support of Israel as they carelessly bomb Palestinians but can't see what Russia is doing to Ukraine which is very much an attempt to wipe out the country, the key-word is attempt though, Ukraine is able to fight back for now, unless people like you get their way.

Lists of benefits:

1. Russia won't invade Ukraine. It has worked for the Baltic states.
2. No need for a second benefit, because the one and only benefit is tremendously huge.

As for your knowledge, it's lacking. There would be no nukes in Ukraine. Just like there are no nukes in the Baltic states or Poland. American and European nuclear weapons did not move eastward since the end of the Cold War.

Some of us don't want to read Russian propaganda, yet here we are.  

Probably vs no probably, seems to suggest you think you're more correct.

Despite the facts not really supporting that. 

How about not being invaded, like they currently are.

During the Tucker Putin interview, Putin spent a solid 30 minutes talking about how Ukraine is really part Russia, how the country isn't real, and how they have a historical claim to that land that dates back to the 800's. 

When Russia's own propaganda tells you how bad they are, you should believe them. 

fair enough lol. Wasn’t my intention, but I can see how you could read that. I’m giving a concession: There’s probably more to it than NATO provocation, just as there is probably more to it than USSR glory.

as far as responding to everything else, I’ll need a minute. Just thought I’d comment on this bc I thought it was a little funny.

(p.s. using the Lord’s name in vain is a big no-no. personally, I won’t be bothered if you do continue to use it, though I will make my request heard.)

(p.s.s. Call what I’m saying Russian propaganda, and I’ll just resort to calling all your guys line to state department propaganda. Let’s be careful not letting our entire arguments rely on mudslinging and shoot-downs. im not holier than thou, but it is a waste when debates take that route.)

I find it funny that Firebush said they were done responding when I asked them how both sides are the same in regards to a wide variety of issues rather than just foreign policy but they will gladly respond to anybody about that single issue.

I’ll say this: I have loads of finals at the moment (math phd if you needed to know…so it’s 24/7 studying pretty much all semester). When I have time to research this stuff, I’ll be back. So let’s say three weeks. Until then, K will ignore this chat.

See y’all then!

This thread got funny.

To be fair, the nuke thing has an historic precedent as the US did place nukes in Turkey, which bordered the Soviet Union. Hell, that was the main reason the Cuban missile crisis got started.

That being said, since Russia knows there are nukes in Turkey already, they also know there likely wouldn't need to be in Eastern Europe, kind of defeating the rationale at the same time.