JuliusHackebeil said:
I don't think it is right to call it a genozide. If so,Israel is doing a very bad job. They could be far more effective, even with the world watching, compared to what they are doing now. And this is using figures Hamas provided, a group whos ethics I do not entirely trust not to lie for their gain.
But even with their numbers (recently the ratio of women, children and elderly has been lowered) the civilian-combatant-casualty ratio does not look bad at all, compared to other wars we had. If this is a genozide and unethical targeting of civillians, so was Korea, Vietnam, the war on ISIS, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.
And how many Russian forces have to be killed for the international crys for a ceasfire? Russia started it, Ukraine is defending itself. The difference is only that the attacked Ukraine is perceived as weak, so they get support (from me too). The attacked Israel is perceived as strong in comparison to Gaza and Hamas. So they just have to take the attack?
No, Israel has the right to defend itself. And when they have a group of people who really are, by their own admission, genozidal towards them, they have to completely destroy that group of people, Hamas (not Palestine). A ceasfire would just give Hamas the opportunity to get strong again. They have to be destroyed.
Hamas started this war. As far as I am concerned the blood of the innocent Palestinians is on their hands, not on Israel. And that is my next point - Gaza (obviously) lost. And yet the war continues. This is not because of Israels cruelty. It is because of Hamas cruelty. A ceasfire is not the only way to stop this war. Hamas could surrender completely, instead of hiding behind their people they should serve, using them as human shields. Really simple, if you stop making war with Israel, you don't have one on your hands.
There were people around the world celebrating 07.10. None of these people wanted a ceasfire than. Now that "their side" is losing they cry about an end to the violence. Not saying these are always the very same people. But the huge protests in Sidney, London etc. were not held on 07.10. That did not warrent coming out in 10s of thousands of people to shout about an end to violence. Just when Israel responds, then it is a crime to protest against.
The international response is really fascinating to me. So many wars around the world with so many dead muslims, way more civilian casualties than Israel is responsible for right now, yet nobody gave a flying f*. But the moment the jews kill muslims it is a crime against humanity. Selective outrage like this is hypocritical as far as I can tell.
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Let me break down all the propaganda you're referring to in your post.
According to the Geneva conventions, the term genocide applies.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf
Mainly for
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
( a ) Killing members of the group;
( b ) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
( c ) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
These 3 points are undeniable.
Lavender AI targets whole families. It doesn't matter what the alleged affiliation with Hamas is, civil workers that simply had a government job get targeted. Acedemics get targeted, journalists get targeted, civil police get targeted. Every day more houses get bombed.
Continued repeated displacement, no safe areas, no health access, no food, no water, no electricity, all imposed by Israel. All causing serious mental harm to all Palestinians in Gaza.
After 7 months there is little left of Gaza, most schools and hospitals destroyed, most infrastructure destroyed, farmland, fishing boats, tree groves, water, most of Gaza has been made unliveable. Next to that the civilian population is being starved by a total blockade upheld by Israel, with Israel thwarting every attempt to bring more aid in, even tipping of Settlers where to attack and block aid convoys.
Also cultural sites, mosques, acheological sites, museums, civil centers, archives, parliament buildings, all destroyed and looted by Israel. That shows intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Israel is trying to erase the Palestinian identity.
( d ) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
This one is an (un)intentional side affect from the war on healthcare and not allowing any neonatal care supplies in Gaza. Women simply don't stop being pregnant when a war starts, many infants don't survive due to malnurishment and lack of healthcare, brought on Gaza by Israel.
But even with their numbers (recently the ratio of women, children and elderly has been lowered) the civilian-combatant-casualty ratio does not look bad at all, compared to other wars we had. If this is a genozide and unethical targeting of civillians, so was Korea, Vietnam, the war on ISIS, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.
Genocide is not defined by the number killed. But yes, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq were also all horrible wars with many civilian deaths. Which is also a big reason why the US is so adamant to prevent the ICC and ICJ from intervening here. The US has terrible skeletons in their closets and has caused many millions of deaths in the Middle East. Most deaths occur in the fallout of the war btw, direct combat deaths are about 1/5th of the total deaths after the wa. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/
The difference with those other wars is though, that civilians could evacuate out of the way. In Gaza everyone is trapped, herded from one end to the other end. The civilian death toll is outrageous for the short time this 'war' has been going. Russia has been destroying Ukraine for over 2 years now, with over 10,500 civilian deaths and 25,000 to 30,000 Ukraine soldiers. The ratio in Gaza is the opposite.
And whether it's 8,000 confirmed or 14,000 estimated children killed (so far), how can you say the ratio does not look bad at all.
And how many Russian forces have to be killed for the international crys for a ceasfire? Russia started it, Ukraine is defending itself. The difference is only that the attacked Ukraine is perceived as weak, so they get support (from me too). The attacked Israel is perceived as strong in comparison to Gaza and Hamas. So they just have to take the attack?
Israel is not under attack, Ukraine is. Israel has full right to prosecute and go after the terrorists of the Oct 7 attacks. What they're doing in Gaza (and the west bank) is not self-defense however.
Gaza is under attack (has been for decades), so don't they have the right to self-defense? Do Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank just have to take the ongoing occupation, apartheid, attacks by Settlers, raids by the IDF, illegal detention and so on?
No, Israel has the right to defend itself. And when they have a group of people who really are, by their own admission, genozidal towards them, they have to completely destroy that group of people, Hamas (not Palestine). A ceasfire would just give Hamas the opportunity to get strong again. They have to be destroyed.
You can not destroy Hamas by military means. It didn't work for ISIS, not going to work for Hamas. All Israel is doing is giving Hamas more support, more recruits, more people turning to Hamas as a last defense. Hamas was created as response to the genocidal intent of the Likud party which coined the phrase from the sea to the river there shall only be Israeli sovereignty.
Hamas rose up 10 years later and took the phrase from Likud and turned it around, from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free. Netanyahu supported Hamas (right up to Oct 7) to prevent Gaza and the West Bank from uniting. Hamas revised its charter in 2017 to promote a 2 state solution and make clear their fight was against the Zionist government, not all Jews. The genocidal intent from the original charter has been abandoned.
Meanwhile Israel only got more radical and has often clearly stated intent to destroy Gaza and ethnically cleanse the area. Ben G'Vir is dead set on restoring settlements in Gaza while approving taking a record amount of more land from the West Bank. All against previous UNSC declarations.
An end to the war with a new government for Gaza and the West Bank will weaken Hamas. Keep up the occupation, apartheid, dehumanization, etc etc, and Hamas will grow. Hamas is growing now in the West Bank as response to the daily raids, illegal detentions and destruction of property and infrastructure.
Hamas started this war. As far as I am concerned the blood of the innocent Palestinians is on their hands, not on Israel. And that is my next point - Gaza (obviously) lost. And yet the war continues. This is not because of Israels cruelty. It is because of Hamas cruelty. A ceasfire is not the only way to stop this war. Hamas could surrender completely, instead of hiding behind their people they should serve, using them as human shields. Really simple, if you stop making war with Israel, you don't have one on your hands.
The war has been going on for 75 years. The oct 7 attacks were a result of what happened since the March of return in 2018-2019.
https://www.msf.org/great-march-return-depth
There was no peace on Oct 6.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/
Oct 7 was a reaction to the continued and escalating violence from Israel.
The war continues because of Netanyahu. He doesn't want a 2-state solution, apartheid is no longer sustainable and 'Greater Israel' would currently not become a fully Jewish state with roughly as many Muslims and Jews in the area. He wants the Palestinians to leave to move the 'numbers' in favor of those of Jewish religion, not to have to share the area with Muslims. Eventually it will have to become a multi cultural combined country where Jews and Muslims can live in peace together. Yet for that to happen, many decades of indoctrination will have to be undone.
That can only happen in times of peace. Yet for peace to happen, religious settlers need to be reigned in, the West Bank needs to be left alone and the daily harassment, discrimination and illegal detention of Palestinians needs to end. 700,000 (and growing) illegal settlers is what keeps the long standing conflict going.
There were people around the world celebrating 07.10. None of these people wanted a ceasfire than. Now that "their side" is losing they cry about an end to the violence. Not saying these are always the very same people. But the huge protests in Sidney, London etc. were not held on 07.10. That did not warrent coming out in 10s of thousands of people to shout about an end to violence. Just when Israel responds, then it is a crime to protest against.
Oct 7 attacks where universally condemned. But sure you always have insensitive idiots that celebrate atrocities. You see them on all sides. Heck IDF soldiers boast about their war crimes on Telegram and get applauded for it. No they are not the same people as those calling for ceasefire.
The huge protests came after it became clear Israel was going far beyond 'self-defense'. Right from the start Gaza was completely cut off of water, electricity, fuel, collective punishment. Then mass bombing with mass casualties followed. Then the protests started.
It didn't help Israel that they kept getting caught in lies (for example the 40 beheaded babies and claims of orchestrated rape campaigns) didn't allow independent investigators in, nor press.
The international response is really fascinating to me. So many wars around the world with so many dead muslims, way more civilian casualties than Israel is responsible for right now, yet nobody gave a flying f*. But the moment the jews kill muslims it is a crime against humanity. Selective outrage like this is hypocritical as far as I can tell.
The power of social media in action. And a lot of the outrage comes from being directly responsible for this genocide. Not in my name is a common slogan. The US is not vetoing the UN on resolutions against the other wars. The US is not actively funding these other wars. And these other wars only benefit from the attack on international law by Israel and the USA.
People has seen past the veil of Hasbara. They didn't give a crap before, but now thanks to social media got involved in what's going on. And so discovered the lies they have been fed by mainstream media for many years. That the conflict did not start on Oct 7, that there is apartheid is a democratic nation fully supported by the West.
There was plenty outrage over Afghanistan and Iraq as well, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay (still not closed), White phospur in Fallujah, depleted Uranium ammounition and so on. Yet the USA has always used its veto to clear itself from any criticism. Plus with influence over the media, eventually people gave up. That might still happen here as well, and what the US has been trying to get to. Telling Israel to tone it down, keep going, but generate less news please.
Yes it's hypocritical that people lose interest when it's not daily in the news. Yet maybe, getting one conflict resolved will pave the way for more attention to other wars and atrocities. And it's not because Jews are killing Muslims, it's Israel making Gaza unliveable, bombing entire families with no where to go, that's driving the protests.
You might call it selective outrage, yet the protests are bringing a lot of people with all different 'outrage' together. Patterns of oppression are being put together and for example people are discovering how police brutality in the US ties into US police training with the IDF. A lot of the misery in the Middle East directly ties into the geopolitics being played by Israel and the USA.
It's all connected. Israel exports oppression all over the world. Oppression techniques tested in Gaza and the West Bank. Oct 7 was not only horrible in itself, it also showed a weakness in Israel's 'supremacy' in how to keep populations under control.
So whether it's selective or not, imo it's right on target.
