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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Might Sony go with a two-SKU strategy next-gen (like Microsoft did with Series S)?

 

Will Sony launch with two SKUs next-gen?

Yes, a regular & weaker PS6 at launch 6 17.65%
 
A PS5 Pro will be the budget option 4 11.76%
 
The PS5 will be the budget option 3 8.82%
 
PS5'll end immediately at PS6 launch 0 0%
 
No, a PS6 and later a PS6 Pro next-gen 18 52.94%
 
Yes, but the weaker one after launch 1 2.94%
 
Other (please explain in the comments) 2 5.88%
 
Total:34
Pemalite said:

Kyuu said:

1. Sony can choose to reduce the SSD capacity, saving a few $. Series S can't match because the capacity is too small as is, and GamePass (the main selling point) skews to higher capacity demand. Do keep in mind that game sizes are also generally smaller on PS5.

No. Sony chose to reduce the SSD capacity, because they made their SSD faster, by building a wider NAND interface... So it was a cost cutting measure.

Sony is likely spending roughly the same amount as Microsoft for their SSD, but chose to sacrifice capacity for speed.

Game sizes are smaller due to a myriad of factors... Less games are built to install on Playstation 4 and Playstation 5 simultaneously, they release a variant specific for each platform... Or run the PS4 version in backwards compatibility mode on the PS5.

Compression.

Localization.

And such.

Kyuu said:

2. PS5 selling a lot more than Xbox can enable Sony to pay chip makers less for more. Xbox reportedly never made money from hardware.

No one can pay TSMC more money, for more chips.

They are at capacity.

The only way to get more chips is by making smaller chips so you can get more chips per wafer.

Kyuu said:

4. Sony are transitioning to smaller die sizes quicker than Microsoft. They've already switched to 6nm months ago, and are reported to go 5nm and launch a cheaper and smaller model in September. This saves costs and improves production. Microsoft is yet to transition to 6nm. I'm aware that there are more complications, but it is something to consider.

Keep in mind that "7nm and 6nm" are actually just advertising numbers, they don't actually represent the geometric feature sizes of transistors on a silicon wafer anymore.

TSMC's advertised "6nm" is actually 7nm+ or 7nm EUV. It uses identical design rules, just denser rooting libs... And not all logic scales the same, if you are SRAM heavy with your chip, it -will- be cheaper to stick to 7nm.

There are advantages to TSMC's "6nm" but it's not a night and day difference, Microsoft may have a contract in place and the cost to move to 6nm may override any tiny cost saving.

That... And TSMC is at capacity, they simply may not have any capacity available.

The real jump will be at 5nm.

Sony and Microsoft are also not the ones shrinking these chips... That is actually AMD and TSMC as the technology is propriety, Microsoft and Sony just hand over a contract/cheque to get the job done.

1. You read my post wrong. The lowest future price points we were discussing concerned Series S vs PS5DE, not Series X vs PS5.

Series S has a storage capacity of 512 GB, that's less than what's inside the PS5DE (825 GB). By simply targeting Series S's storage (in size), Sony would reduce the cost gap which was already small at launch relative to the specs difference ($300 vs $400). Series S is more storage hungry/dependent, its game generally have the bigger file sizes (regardless of the reasons), and the proprietary expansion card is slower, much more expensive, and limited in options (2 options vs countless). There would be no harm in Sony releasing a cheaper PS5DE version with storage lower than 512 GB, because the flexible expansions are becoming dirt cheap, and it doesn't have GamePass games to worry about. If Xbox can go as low as 512 GB, so should PS5 with its decidedly superior storage system.

2. True 6nm or not, PS5's die size shrank, and as a result Sony (or the chip makers) can now produce noticeably more units than they used to. Series S has the theoretical production capacity to crush PS5's, but you can't sell what people don't want, so it's an insignificant long term advantage. The console is primarily demand capped as opposed to production capped. Whatever the reason, Sony's production targets are now reportedly sky high, while MS is still trying to convince people that Series S is the best deal in gaming instead of doing something about the X. Series X being "wafer hungry" so to speak due to its slower clockrate/wider design, and perhaps taking long to transition to "6nm", is translating to piss poor sales, especially if VGC's estimates are to be believed. PS5 is getting a revision soon (possibly 5nm), yet no word is out about Microsoft matching. They're clearly slower, and 2023 will confirm it. MS was reported to transition to the "pseudo" 6nm as well, but it's taking them longer supposedly because they're a lower priority to TSMC:

https://www.angstronomics.com/p/ps5-refresh-oberon-plus

For a while, it was reported that Microsoft paid for chip priority. During that period, Xbox Series managed to score a few wins and generally fought back. Why do you think that happened/stopped? If it's just a matter of TSMC favoring the highest bidder, then why didn't MS continue to pay them extra? Do platform popularity and demand perceptions influence TSMC and AMD's decisions to prioritize between Sony and Microsoft? Why isn't Microsoft getting as much wafer as Sony? I think it's obvious that Playstation's popularity gives Sony an edge in being prioritized by chip makers by default, which automatically puts them in a comfortable position and enables them to strike better deals.



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Pemalite said:

Seems the cadence has already been set.

Xbox One (2013) > Xbox One S (2016) > Xbox One X (2017) > Xbox One S Digital (2019) > Xbox Series X/Series S (2020).

And considering they all use the same software, controllers and games for the most part (My One X and Series X controllers are the same, except for the share button)... We are probably due for a new device for this 2023 year.

Microsoft did a short gen with the OG Xbox (one performance level), then a long gen with the 360 (one performance level, even though that generation was practically *crying* out for "pro" consoles!), and then a long gen with the Xbox One (technically three, but mainly two performance levels).  So I don't see any commonality from one generation to the next, so what would suggest they'll follow suit this gen with any of those three previous examples.  Especially because this cycle they've launched with two performance levels for the first time?

There doesn't need to be a market for it. It's what is called a "Halo" product.

It's why nVidia tries stupidly hard to have the fastest, most expensive GPU that 99.9% of people cannot justify buying or afford.

It's not because they have a market for it, but because it helps sell the rest of the product stack, it's what gets everyone talking, it's what is showcased.. And that is then associated with the brand.

I'm familiar with "halo" and "image-maker" products, but they make more sense to me in the PC space where games have user-selectable quality levels, than on console where there's a tendency for developers offer limited end-user customization of the experience.  Because of this, even a "halo" product has to be expected to sell well enough to make developers want to bother optimizing for it.

5 and 3nm will reduce cost, you will get more chips per wafer. - TSMC will simply charge more until there is less competition for the node. Supply/Demand.

They are abstracting and using virtualization for the most part, not emulating the Xbox One, except for a few key hardware features. (Like Xbox 360 texture formats as the Series X doesn't have hardware support, but the Xbox One does.)

From the big Series S interview on Eurogamer:

"To put that into perspective, Xbox 360 launched with individual CPU and GPUs, both fabricated at 90nm. By the generation's end, those two components had been combined into a single chip, delivering a significant cost reduction in its own right, and they were also delivered using a much smaller process (possibly as low as 32nm on the final model). Between launch and the end of the 360's lifecycle, the machine had actually transitioned through several fabrication nodes. Its successor - Xbox One - saw its processor revised just once, down from 28nm to 16nm FinFET. Cost reduction opportunities were thin on the ground for this generation and will be even more constricted going forward.

"Moore's Law is certainly not dead! Moore's Law is continuing and we have a good path to 5nm and 3nm, and those are going to bring improved performance and good power," enthuses Goossen. "What they're not bringing any more is a good cost reduction cost per transistor - and so this has foundational impacts to console development, because now we'll get cost reductions, but they're slowing down and it won't be nearly the magnitudes that we've seen before"."

So Microsoft is predicting that cost reductions per transistor from new processes will be smaller than what we saw with the Xbox One, which itself was smaller than what we saw with the Xbox 360.  That's the point.  So those that saw we'll see dramatic price reductions in consoles this gen may not have their expectations met.



haxxiy said:

Cost reduction is definitely still doable this gen. Assuming the APUs are 300 mm2 on 7nm and 100 mm2 on 3 nm, that's the difference between 160 vs. 550 dies per wafer. More than enough to compensate for the shrink even with the cost per wafer doubling (to the tune of ~ $25 saved per APU).

Of course, there will be redesign costs involved, but there will be savings in power consumption and supply, form factor and shipping, etc. in the long run.

It's not that there will be no cost reductions, it's just that they're reportedly anticipated to become comparatively meagre over time.  For example, Microsoft said of the 360:

"Series S has been very impactful for us. As we design our new consoles for the new generation, we're very much looking forward through the generation to be thinking ahead - like, how does this work? - and that's why we got to two consoles at the same time," Goossen continued. "We are facing a big change in how consoles are designed. I believe when we first started building the original Xbox 360 - the smallest one without the HDD - that cost us about $460. By the end of the generation it cost us around $120 - and that cost reduction path was driven principally by silicon cost reduction."

We didn't see anything that major last gen, and they're predicting even less this gen.



drkohler said:

It's actually much cheaper for engineering and production. One mainboard, one SoC, one memory = one supply chain to manage.

So it is very unlikely Sony will double the trouble by managing two supply chains instead of a single one. Not everyone has the luxury to throw money around on hardware like some other company...

Except Sony is managing two supply chains, one for PS5 and one for PS4.

Microsoft ended its Xbox One supply chain as it began the two for the Xbox Series consoles.

I grant you on the engineering front, but not on the supply chain front.



mjk45 said:

I don't believe the Pro consoles extended anything all that happened was if you were a gamer who wanted standard PS and Xbox games with a smoother experience or were a later adopter you now had that choice.

There's normally pressure, late in a generation, on the huge delta between console and PC performance.  It's likely that some gamers drift towards consoles early in a generation, and then drift back to PC one-by-one, as the performance gap grows.  The "pro" consoles reduced that delta, so likely stemmed that flow last gen.  And that reduced pressure to launch the new generation in, say, 2018 or 2019 (vs. 2020).  Generations can and do last longer than that, but the longer the generation goes on the worse the gap goes.  Look at how bad PS360 games were vs. PCs in 2012 and 2013!



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An interesting video from Digital Foundry comparing a last-gen PC graphics card (the 3060) against its current-gen replacement (the 4060). What stood out for me about this video was that even though the older card had 50% more RAM (12 GB vs. only 8 GB on the new ones), that the new card nonetheless offered better overall performance in a lot of situations due to the more efficient architecture. And the new card drew less wattage per frame generated (meaning the older card not only needed more RAM, but it needed more watts to get the same FPS). If the new card had the same amount of RAM, it would have been absolutely no contest at all.

This architectural advantage winning out over more frame-buffer RAM is a big part of why moving to a new architecture would probably pay more dividends than a suped-up "Pro" console where they're increasing the clocks, the compute units, or the RAM of the old system. Same as how the Series S was smaller and less expensive to manufacture than the One X, despite the Series S being more capable overall.

Here's the video here for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ3u5bWMf_M