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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Might Sony go with a two-SKU strategy next-gen (like Microsoft did with Series S)?

 

Will Sony launch with two SKUs next-gen?

Yes, a regular & weaker PS6 at launch 6 17.65%
 
A PS5 Pro will be the budget option 4 11.76%
 
The PS5 will be the budget option 3 8.82%
 
PS5'll end immediately at PS6 launch 0 0%
 
No, a PS6 and later a PS6 Pro next-gen 18 52.94%
 
Yes, but the weaker one after launch 1 2.94%
 
Other (please explain in the comments) 2 5.88%
 
Total:34
Pemalite said:

I think Microsoft's approach is to build a "series" of consoles with regular hardware updates.

The Playstation 5 and Xbox Series X released on TSMC's "7nm" process.
We are pushing 5nm in the GPU space now and TSMC's 3nm is starting to pick up traction.

Microsoft and Sony also pushed out clockrates a little harder which tends to have a corresponding increase to power consumption... A more balanced chip would likely remove much of that.

I think in a year or two, a PRO console is more than justifiable... Even with technology of today we can already expect a 50% performance improvement on most aspects.

As for the architecture/compatibility issue...

Microsoft went from Graphics Core Next 1.0 to Graphics Core Next 4.0 with the Xbox One > One X and never broke backwards compatibility... And they were chalk-and-cheese in terms of core design.
Sony and Microsoft also went from GCN to RDNA 2 which is a larger leap than RDNA 2 to RDNA 3 and never broke backwards compatability.

Microsoft and Sony are employing monolithic OS's, drivers and kernels that smooth over discrepancies in hardware which makes it all a non-issue... Their focus is to be able to move everything forwards with new hardware.

I agree with Microsoft's naming convention suggesting a series of consoles with updates.  The question is at what cadence, and whether they designed to be "pro" consoles of what came before, or a new generation each time (or perhaps whether they'll even alternate between those extremes).  The span in between, and what past console iterations that developers are required to support, will tell the tale.

As for pro consoles being justified, it's a question of two things IMO: is there a market for it (as there was for 4K-focused mid-gen refreshes last-gen), and can it be done economically.  Those 5 and 3 nm processes you speak of, Microsoft has signalled that they'll reduce heat and size, but not reduce cost as those processes are expected to cost enough more that the increase in yields will at best compensate.  Time will tell if Microsoft is proven correct, but at this point they're not anticipating big cost reductions in Series X|S and PS5.  That makes a "pro" console that can be offered at a cost that drives market acceptance hard to come up with, if that prediction holds true.

As for those upgrades not breaking backwards compatibility, that was done in part through emulation of elements of past platforms.  Even Xbox One on Xbox Series has an emulation layer, from what I understand.  So Microsoft either needs a fully backwards compatible architecture, or a big enough power bump each time to emulate as necessary.



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Kyuu said:

I don't think I'd have to wait that long to gather that Microsoft made a serious miscalculation. Actually the bolded pretty much shows why it's indeed misfired. MS thought this generation will play out like X1/PS4 vs X1X/PS4 Pro where the low powered/cheap SKU sees higher demand or sales. They kept the Series S a secret until not long before launch as if to checkmate Sony.

It seems that by design, the Series X was positioned to be their limited-quantity/enthusiast SKU that's just there to assist the Series S, their primary SKU. This would not pan out well in a long generation. Series S has very little room for effective long term pricedrops compared to PS5 and Series X (see Wii vs PS3), and it's underpowered right off the bat, meaning it will age rather poorly especially if a midgen upgrade is planned. When/if midgen upgrades are launched, a lot of AAA developers will push for fidelity high enough for base (by then cheap) PS5 and Series X to struggle in achieving 1080p+/40+ fps (You wanna go higher? Get the PS5 Pro, or the Xbox Series XL, or a capable PC!), Series S won't be able to adequately handle games with such high workload. We're not yet feeling the S limitations because we're still stuck in the crossgen period, the vast majority of console-grade games are souped up/upgraded Xbox 1 games.

If Series X meets demand and continues to sell less than the S, I'd blame it on Microsoft's marketing and people giving up and switching to PS5 or PC. As always, I may be wrong and Series S does manage to appeal to a new large dempgraphic, but so far I'm not feeling it and I don't think it'll happen.

The Series X and PS5 aren't priced as "hardcore gamer" consoles. With inflation in mind, they're priced in line with typical powerful consoles. I don't know why you're assuming demand will decrease over time in favor of the Series S. The only notably underpowered home consoles I can think of are the Wii and Wii U, one managed to find huge success by appealing to a new dempgraphic early in its lifecycle, but ultimately having weak legs because it aged poorly (I predicted that), and the other was a commercial disaster. It's less that PS5/Series X are "hardcore", and more that Series S is too cheap/underpowered. The existing console playerbase have no problem paying up to $500 ($400 for digital editions) for a powerful console, the Series S is trying to solve an issue that doesn't exist.

I agree that the Series S has little room for effective long-term price drops.  What I see as the flaw in your analysis is that Microsoft is predicting that the PS5 and Series X *also* have little room for effective long-term price drops.  Typically consoles are sold at a loss up-front, but with cost reductions so substantial that they can later be sold at a profit despite significant reductions in MSRP.  What Microsoft said in the Eurogamer interview that I've been referring to, is that their road map doesn't show substantial cost savings due to moving to smaller processes.  They will likely realize some cost savings over time, but not as much as in the PS4/X1 era, which itself was not as much as the PS360 era.  Therefore, Microsoft and Sony are likely going to have to choose between selling them at a profit, or significant MSRP reductions, they likely won't enjoy both.  They could maybe split the difference (sell them at cost at moderate MSRP reductions).  But that significantly changes the rest of your analysis, IMO.

You also misquote me.  At no point did I assume that Series X demand will decrease over time in favour of the Series S.  I indicated that Microsoft suggested that, not that I was saying it was necessarily going to be so.



scrapking said:
Kyuu said:

I don't think I'd have to wait that long to gather that Microsoft made a serious miscalculation. Actually the bolded pretty much shows why it's indeed misfired. MS thought this generation will play out like X1/PS4 vs X1X/PS4 Pro where the low powered/cheap SKU sees higher demand or sales. They kept the Series S a secret until not long before launch as if to checkmate Sony.

It seems that by design, the Series X was positioned to be their limited-quantity/enthusiast SKU that's just there to assist the Series S, their primary SKU. This would not pan out well in a long generation. Series S has very little room for effective long term pricedrops compared to PS5 and Series X (see Wii vs PS3), and it's underpowered right off the bat, meaning it will age rather poorly especially if a midgen upgrade is planned. When/if midgen upgrades are launched, a lot of AAA developers will push for fidelity high enough for base (by then cheap) PS5 and Series X to struggle in achieving 1080p+/40+ fps (You wanna go higher? Get the PS5 Pro, or the Xbox Series XL, or a capable PC!), Series S won't be able to adequately handle games with such high workload. We're not yet feeling the S limitations because we're still stuck in the crossgen period, the vast majority of console-grade games are souped up/upgraded Xbox 1 games.

If Series X meets demand and continues to sell less than the S, I'd blame it on Microsoft's marketing and people giving up and switching to PS5 or PC. As always, I may be wrong and Series S does manage to appeal to a new large dempgraphic, but so far I'm not feeling it and I don't think it'll happen.

The Series X and PS5 aren't priced as "hardcore gamer" consoles. With inflation in mind, they're priced in line with typical powerful consoles. I don't know why you're assuming demand will decrease over time in favor of the Series S. The only notably underpowered home consoles I can think of are the Wii and Wii U, one managed to find huge success by appealing to a new dempgraphic early in its lifecycle, but ultimately having weak legs because it aged poorly (I predicted that), and the other was a commercial disaster. It's less that PS5/Series X are "hardcore", and more that Series S is too cheap/underpowered. The existing console playerbase have no problem paying up to $500 ($400 for digital editions) for a powerful console, the Series S is trying to solve an issue that doesn't exist.

I agree that the Series S has little room for effective long-term price drops.  What I see as the flaw in your analysis is that Microsoft is predicting that the PS5 and Series X *also* have little room for effective long-term price drops.  Typically consoles are sold at a loss up-front, but with cost reductions so substantial that they can later be sold at a profit despite significant reductions in MSRP.  What Microsoft said in the Eurogamer interview that I've been referring to, is that their road map doesn't show substantial cost savings due to moving to smaller processes.  They will likely realize some cost savings over time, but not as much as in the PS4/X1 era, which itself was not as much as the PS360 era.  Therefore, Microsoft and Sony are likely going to have to choose between selling them at a profit, or significant MSRP reductions, they likely won't enjoy both.  They could maybe split the difference (sell them at cost at moderate MSRP reductions).  But that significantly changes the rest of your analysis, IMO.

You also misquote me.  At no point did I assume that Series X demand will decrease over time in favour of the Series S.  I indicated that Microsoft suggested that, not that I was saying it was necessarily going to be so.

Well I apologize for misquoting you but you said Microsoft's (Phil Spencer's) assumption made sense so it looked like you shared their opinion. I don't think their assumption/expectation ever made sense. They underestimated the appeal of a brand new $400-$500 powerful hardware and overestimated the Series S based on poor analogies.


Idk about the Series X, but the PS5 physical edition (which is slightly less powerful) made profit a few months into the generation... until the economical shifts complicated things. I still think PS5 will follow a fairly similar price drop trajectory to PS4 from here on out, with the Digital Edition eventually costing as little as $250-$300 (vs $200 for the much weaker Series S). I think a mass-porduced Series X with two configurations would have been the better strategy for the long term, even if it required slightly lowering the specs in favor of higher quantities.

When the PS5 revision launches later this year, I expect Sony to drop the price outside the US back to its original price or lower, and to start pushing the new "Digital Edition" (namely the PS5 without the disc drive add-on). It looks to me that hardware wise, Playstation's approach was the correct one. Hence copying Microsoft would be wrong imo.



I doubt Sony would go for 2 separate models, they want to keep things simple for developers. If you compare the installed base of current gen, 30 million PS5, 15 million Series S and 6 million Series X (using roughly 70/30 distribution from UK data), it is clear where to developer focus is going to be. In general, it is the optimization of software that yields best gaming performance.



scrapking said:

I agree with Microsoft's naming convention suggesting a series of consoles with updates.  The question is at what cadence, and whether they designed to be "pro" consoles of what came before, or a new generation each time (or perhaps whether they'll even alternate between those extremes).  The span in between, and what past console iterations that developers are required to support, will tell the

Seems the cadence has already been set.

Xbox One (2013) > Xbox One S (2016) > Xbox One X (2017) > Xbox One S Digital (2019) > Xbox Series X/Series S (2020).

And considering they all use the same software, controllers and games for the most part (My One X and Series X controllers are the same, except for the share button)... We are probably due for a new device for this 2023 year.

scrapking said:

As for pro consoles being justified, it's a question of two things IMO: is there a market for it (as there was for 4K-focused mid-gen refreshes last-gen), and can it be done economically.  Those 5 and 3 nm processes you speak of, Microsoft has signalled that they'll reduce heat and size, but not reduce cost as those processes are expected to cost enough more that the increase in yields will at best compensate.  Time will tell if Microsoft is proven correct, but at this point they're not anticipating big cost reductions in Series X|S and PS5.  That makes a "pro" console that can be offered at a cost that drives market acceptance hard to come up with, if that prediction holds true. 

There doesn't need to be a market for it. It's what is called a "Halo" product.

It's why nVidia tries stupidly hard to have the fastest, most expensive GPU that 99.9% of people cannot justify buying or afford.

It's not because they have a market for it, but because it helps sell the rest of the product stack, it's what gets everyone talking, it's what is showcased.. And that is then associated with the brand.

5 and 3nm will reduce cost, you will get more chips per wafer. - TSMC will simply charge more until there is less competition for the node. Supply/Demand.

scrapking said:

As for those upgrades not breaking backwards compatibility, that was done in part through emulation of elements of past platforms.  Even Xbox One on Xbox Series has an emulation layer, from what I understand.  So Microsoft either needs a fully backwards compatible architecture, or a big enough power bump each time to emulate as necessary.

They are abstracting and using virtualization for the most part, not emulating the Xbox One, except for a few key hardware features. (Like Xbox 360 texture formats as the Series X doesn't have hardware support, but the Xbox One does.)

Last edited by Pemalite - on 08 January 2023

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Kyuu said:
scrapking said:

I think you're premature in judging the strategy as a misfire.  From the beginning, Microsoft said their expectation was that the Series X would sell better at first, and that the Series S would sell better over time.  And that makes sense to me, as the early-adopters are going to tend to want the most powerful options, but as the generation wears on and the mix of buyers shifts from more hardcore games to more casual gamers the Series S may indeed grow in popularity.  Given Microsoft's stated intentions/expectations, we will only be able to judge their success/failure at the end of this generation, not the beginning or middle.

I don't think I'd have to wait that long to gather that Microsoft made a serious miscalculation. Actually the bolded pretty much shows why it's indeed misfired. MS thought this generation will play out like X1/PS4 vs X1X/PS4 Pro where the low powered/cheap SKU sees higher demand or sales. They kept the Series S a secret until not long before launch as if to checkmate Sony.

It seems that by design, the Series X was positioned to be their limited-quantity/enthusiast SKU that's just there to assist the Series S, their primary SKU. This would not pan out well in a long generation. Series S has very little room for effective long term pricedrops compared to PS5 and Series X (see Wii vs PS3), and it's underpowered right off the bat, meaning it will age rather poorly especially if a midgen upgrade is planned. When/if midgen upgrades are launched, a lot of AAA developers will push for fidelity high enough for base (by then cheap) PS5 and Series X to struggle in achieving 1080p+/40+ fps (You wanna go higher? Get the PS5 Pro, or the Xbox Series XL, or a capable PC!), Series S won't be able to adequately handle games with such high workload. We're not yet feeling the S limitations because we're still stuck in the crossgen period, the vast majority of console-grade games are souped up/upgraded Xbox 1 games.

If Series X meets demand and continues to sell less than the S, I'd blame it on Microsoft's marketing and people giving up and switching to PS5 or PC. As always, I may be wrong and Series S does manage to appeal to a new large dempgraphic, but so far I'm not feeling it and I don't think it'll happen.

The Series X and PS5 aren't priced as "hardcore gamer" consoles. With inflation in mind, they're priced in line with typical powerful consoles. I don't know why you're assuming demand will decrease over time in favor of the Series S. The only notably underpowered home consoles I can think of are the Wii and Wii U, one managed to find huge success by appealing to a new dempgraphic early in its lifecycle, but ultimately having weak legs because it aged poorly (I predicted that), and the other was a commercial disaster. It's less that PS5/Series X are "hardcore", and more that Series S is too cheap/underpowered. The existing console playerbase have no problem paying up to $500 ($400 for digital editions) for a powerful console, the Series S is trying to solve an issue that doesn't exist.

Na... We knew about Lockhart for ages. Possibly years before it was called the series s. 

It's clearly a winning strategy. Is it enough to beat Sony? No. Certainly enough to claw back marketshare though. 



Cost reduction is definitely still doable this gen. Assuming the APUs are 300 mm2 on 7nm and 100 mm2 on 3 nm, that's the difference between 160 vs. 550 dies per wafer. More than enough to compensate for the shrink even with the cost per wafer doubling (to the tune of ~ $25 saved per APU).

Of course, there will be redesign costs involved, but there will be savings in power consumption and supply, form factor and shipping, etc. in the long run.



 

 

 

 

 

PS5 would've surpassed PS4 from launch and been millions ahead right now had Sony been able to supply the demand within reason.

I'd say as long as PS6 would be as compatible as PS5 is with PS4, if not more so, then just launch PS6 in 2026. Design it with very similar performance vs cost parameters used for the PS5. Stay on track with the game output and future plans.

Then all Sony needs to do is make sure they have plenty of PS6 stock available and hope for enough worldwide stability.



konkari said:

I doubt Sony would go for 2 separate models, they want to keep things simple for developers.

It's actually much cheaper for engineering and production. One mainboard, one SoC, one memory = one supply chain to manage.

So it is very unlikely Sony will double the trouble by managing two supply chains instead of a single one. Not everyone has the luxury to throw money around on hardware like some other company...



konkari said:

I doubt Sony would go for 2 separate models, they want to keep things simple for developers. If you compare the installed base of current gen, 30 million PS5, 15 million Series S and 6 million Series X (using roughly 70/30 distribution from UK data), it is clear where to developer focus is going to be. In general, it is the optimization of software that yields best gaming performance.

I wonder how the split would have ended up without the shortages and economic downturn. The Series S struck gold thanks to the the pandemic.

For a long time only Series S was available here, PS5 and Series X are only now more readily available. (PS5 both versions are sold out here again, Series X is in stock) Plus the shortages and economic fallout caused the prices to go up rather than having price cuts for the 'premium' versions by now. (They are cheaper now relatively speaking, everything else went up even more in price :/) So no wonder a cheaper alternative that was actually available is selling well, and still holding up well thanks to a much longer cross gen period from the lock down delays and shortages.

But as you said, now the PS5 has the biggest market share by far of the 'premium' consoles, so optimization will happen on PS5 first. And we've yet to find out how the Series S can hold up when PS5 / Series X target 1440p30 for a true 9th gen game. Sure it can always be ported down, the Switch is the proof of that. But the bigger the changes needed, the more time spent on porting, less time for polishing.