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Ryuu96 said:
shikamaru317 said:

Now all of that being said, I'm not against Xbox having an entry level model available. However, I think they are going about it all wrong. What they need to do is have the Pro model from the previous gen be treated as the entry level model the next-generation. If they had made Xbox One X a more balanced system that leaned a bit less heavily into GPU and more heavily into CPU and storage improvements, Xbox One X could have taken the place of Series S in the early part of this generation, getting a smaller refresh in 2020 alongside Series X. This is what Xbox needs to be doing in my opinion, instead of having an entry level console like Series S each generation that then must be supported by developers the entire generation, instead treat the mid-gen Pro model from the previous generation as the entry level model for the first half of the next generation.

So we should have seen something like this:

2013- Xbox One- 7 years of required dev support from 2013-2020, then devs are allowed to skip it if they choose.
2017- Xbox One X- 8 years of required dev support from 2017-2025, then devs are allowed to skip it if they choose.
2020- Xbox Series X- 9 years of required dev support from 2020-2029, then devs are allowed to skip it if they choose.
2025- Xbox Series E (for lack of a better name)- 8 years of required developer support from 2025-2033, then devs are allowed to skip it if they choose.
2029- Xbox Series 2- 8 years of required developer support from 2029-2037, then devs are allowed to skip it if they choose.

And so on an so forth. That is a far superior idea than to release a budget entry level model at the beginning of the generation that then must be supported by devs for the entire 8-9 years of the generation. With my idea, those who buy a mid-gen Pro console at launch get a full generation worth of use out of it, whereas the $500 at launch in 2017 Xbox One X is already starting to be skipped by developers in 2022, just 5 years later, because Xbox decided to replace it with Series S instead of designing it to be better balanced at launch so that it could operate as the entry level Xbox at the beginning of this gen. 

I'm lost.

Xbox One X is far weaker than Series S so why would you want that? Lol.

Another issue with that is both that Xbox One was a tarnished brand and when you launch next gen, consumers aren't really that interested in last gen anymore.

Xbox One X is actually better than Series X in 2 metrics, GPU performance and RAM performance. I'm saying that back in 2017 they should have designed Xbox One X to be more balanced, instead of putting all of their hardware budget into GPU and RAM and doing basically nothing to improve Xbox One's jank-ass Jaguar CPU and 5200 RPM laptop hard drive, they should have put a slightly weaker GPU into it and less and slower RAM into it, and put a better CPU and an SSD into it in order to make it an actual well-balanced console like Series S is. I'm basically saying that Xbox One X should have released with about Xbox Series S specs back in 2017. Then they could have had devs support it from it's 2017 launch until 2025. Xbox One X could have been treated as the entry level console for Xbox Series X for the first 5 years of the generation from 2020-2025, whereupon devs could drop support for Xbox One X. People who bought Xbox One X in 2017 would have got a full 8 years of use out of it, instead of only 5 years. Instead of Xbox Series S dragging down development in the latter half of this generation from 2025-2029, devs wouldn't be required to support the old entry level model (Xbox One X) from 2025 onward, as the new entry level model would be a cheaper, smaller version of Xbox Series X released in 2024 or 2025.



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shikamaru317 said:
Ryuu96 said:

I'm lost.

Xbox One X is far weaker than Series S so why would you want that? Lol.

Another issue with that is both that Xbox One was a tarnished brand and when you launch next gen, consumers aren't really that interested in last gen anymore.

Xbox One X is actually better than Series X in 2 metrics, GPU performance and RAM performance. I'm saying that back in 2017 they should have designed Xbox One X to be more balanced, instead of putting all of their hardware budget into GPU and RAM and doing basically nothing to improve Xbox One's jank-ass Jaguar CPU and 5200 RPM laptop hard drive, they should have put a slightly weaker GPU into it and less and slower RAM into it, and put a better CPU and an SSD into it in order to make it an actual well-balanced console like Series S is. I'm basically saying that Xbox One X should have released with about Xbox Series S specs back in 2017. Then they could have had devs support it from it's 2017 launch until 2025. Xbox One X could have been treated as the entry level console for Xbox Series X for the first 5 years of the generation from 2020-2025, whereupon devs could drop support for Xbox One X. People who bought Xbox One X in 2017 would have got a full 8 years of use out of it, instead of only 5 years. Instead of Xbox Series S dragging down development in the latter half of this generation from 2025-2029, devs wouldn't be required to support the old entry level model (Xbox One X) from 2025 onward, as the new entry level model would be a cheaper, smaller version of Xbox Series X released in 2024 or 2025.

The only thing One X does better than Series S is resolution IIRC. Series S should have far better framerate, loading speeds, refresh rate, effects, lighting, textures, etc. One X may have a higher number of TF but it's old architecture while Series S is RDNA 2 which comes with a ton of features that One X isn't capable of. RDNA 2 wouldn't have been able to exist for One X back in 2018 so it would have still used older tech.

Series S likely no matter what would have ended up more powerful than One X overall because it can actually take advantage of new tech released in 2020 whilst One X is held back by older tech. If it wasn't for the stock shortage, then I think support for last gen wouldn't last until 2025 and the issue remains of marketing.

Xbox One X would have still been seen as a last gen console and likely dropped the moment Xbox One is dropped, by both consumers and developers, nobody really wants to go when launching a next gen console "you can buy our last gen hardware" and by launching the budget console and high-end console at the same time, they can both take advantage of newer technologies better.

It still remains to be seen if Series S will hold back current gen, but so far multiple developers and Digital Foundry have said it's fine for now, developers have always optimised for multiple platforms from low to high end, they just have to put a little extra work in. At least the thousands of indie developers who support Switch shouldn't mind supporting Series S and the rest (major publishers) easily have the capability to do so as well.

They'll be no holding back if they put the effort in and specifically optimise for both, some publishers might not, Xbox Game Studios/Bethesda Game Studios will. I think it's much better to argue that Series S could have had slightly higher specs but not so far to make it no longer a budget console but so far it has proven to be a big success for Xbox and consumers so there's no sensible reason to abandon the idea.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 27 November 2022

Ryuu96 said:
shikamaru317 said:

Xbox One X is actually better than Series X in 2 metrics, GPU performance and RAM performance. I'm saying that back in 2017 they should have designed Xbox One X to be more balanced, instead of putting all of their hardware budget into GPU and RAM and doing basically nothing to improve Xbox One's jank-ass Jaguar CPU and 5200 RPM laptop hard drive, they should have put a slightly weaker GPU into it and less and slower RAM into it, and put a better CPU and an SSD into it in order to make it an actual well-balanced console like Series S is. I'm basically saying that Xbox One X should have released with about Xbox Series S specs back in 2017. Then they could have had devs support it from it's 2017 launch until 2025. Xbox One X could have been treated as the entry level console for Xbox Series X for the first 5 years of the generation from 2020-2025, whereupon devs could drop support for Xbox One X. People who bought Xbox One X in 2017 would have got a full 8 years of use out of it, instead of only 5 years. Instead of Xbox Series S dragging down development in the latter half of this generation from 2025-2029, devs wouldn't be required to support the old entry level model (Xbox One X) from 2025 onward, as the new entry level model would be a cheaper, smaller version of Xbox Series X released in 2024 or 2025.

The only thing One X does better than Series S is resolution IIRC. Series S should have far better framerate, loading speeds, refresh rate, effects, lighting, textures, etc. One X may have a higher number of TF but it's old architecture while Series S is RDNA 2 which comes with a ton of features that One X isn't capable of. RDNA 2 wouldn't have been able to exist for One X back in 2018 so it would have still used older tech.

Series S likely no matter what would have ended up more powerful than One X overall because it can actually take advantage of new tech released in 2020 whilst One X is held back by older tech. If it wasn't for the stock shortage, then I think support for last gen wouldn't last until 2025 and the issue remains of marketing.

Xbox One X would have still been seen as a last gen console and likely dropped the moment Xbox One is dropped, by both consumers and developers, nobody really wants to go when launching a next gen console "you can buy our last gen hardware" and by launching the budget console and high-end console at the same time, they can both take advantage of newer technologies better.

It still remains to be seen if Series S will hold back current gen, but so far multiple developers and Digital Foundry have said it's fine for now, developers have always optimised for multiple platforms from low to high end, they just have to put a little extra work in. At least the thousands of indie developers who support Switch shouldn't mind supporting Series S and the rest (major publishers) easily have the capability to do so as well.

They'll be no holding back if they put the effort in and specifically optimise for both, some won't, Xbox Game Studios/Bethesda Game Studios will.

Idk why some people claim such a thing. It's ridiculous.

The Switch is somewhere between WiiU and Xbox One in power and yet gets ports of pretty much every game out there. Yeah the results are often times pretty bad and they're obviously not even on the level of Xbox One but they exist. Therefore, I don't see how Series S could hold anything back. Every game will be playable on it, even if it's sub 720p with sub 30 FPS (which I don't think will ever happen).

The difference between Switch and Xbox One X is IMO far bigger than the difference between Series S and Series X.



derpysquirtle64 said:
Angelus said:

P.P.S. It's good for you that you gave up on filling the compendium, because it's not possible to do so in the first run. You need NG+ for that.

Oh man, that woulda killed me lol



Barozi said:
Ryuu96 said:

The only thing One X does better than Series S is resolution IIRC. Series S should have far better framerate, loading speeds, refresh rate, effects, lighting, textures, etc. One X may have a higher number of TF but it's old architecture while Series S is RDNA 2 which comes with a ton of features that One X isn't capable of. RDNA 2 wouldn't have been able to exist for One X back in 2018 so it would have still used older tech.

Series S likely no matter what would have ended up more powerful than One X overall because it can actually take advantage of new tech released in 2020 whilst One X is held back by older tech. If it wasn't for the stock shortage, then I think support for last gen wouldn't last until 2025 and the issue remains of marketing.

Xbox One X would have still been seen as a last gen console and likely dropped the moment Xbox One is dropped, by both consumers and developers, nobody really wants to go when launching a next gen console "you can buy our last gen hardware" and by launching the budget console and high-end console at the same time, they can both take advantage of newer technologies better.

It still remains to be seen if Series S will hold back current gen, but so far multiple developers and Digital Foundry have said it's fine for now, developers have always optimised for multiple platforms from low to high end, they just have to put a little extra work in. At least the thousands of indie developers who support Switch shouldn't mind supporting Series S and the rest (major publishers) easily have the capability to do so as well.

They'll be no holding back if they put the effort in and specifically optimise for both, some won't, Xbox Game Studios/Bethesda Game Studios will.

Idk why some people claim such a thing. It's ridiculous.

The Switch is somewhere between WiiU and Xbox One in power and yet gets ports of pretty much every game out there. Yeah the results are often times pretty bad and they're obviously not even on the level of Xbox One but they exist. Therefore, I don't see how Series S could hold anything back. Every game will be playable on it, even if it's sub 720p with sub 30 FPS (which I don't think will ever happen).

The difference between Switch and Xbox One X is IMO far bigger than the difference between Series S and Series X.

Switch 2 will likely be weaker than Xbox Series as well.

If Steam Deck gets more popular, then we may see a lot of developers optimise for that too.

I don't get it either, developers always optimise for various levels of hardware, Series S is pretty powerful on its own with all the new technologies, it doesn't feel like a case of "can" but more a case of "want" for optimising. I don't see why Series X would be held back by Series S unless developers just port for Series S capabilities and call it a day, Lol.

Why wouldn't developers just optimise for Series X first and then when that is done, downscale all the settings for Series S? Isn't that how developers work already? I thought downscaling was generally considered easier to do than upscaling? They won't work Series S up, they'll work Series X down, surely?

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 27 November 2022

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VersusEvil said:

@Angelus yeah but who did you think was best girl and I agree with you its Ann.

Nah, Makoto was the best, followed by Futaba (in the little sister way tho). I liked Ann for the most part, but she was annoyingly naive at times. The fact that she kept letting that one model fuck with her over and over, and not only did she not get it, but also actually thought it was cool, and it made her wanna be a model even more...I was just sitting there like...wtf is wrong with you woman?



One things for sure, processing power isn’t an issue for Series S. It’s literally more powerful than PS5’s processor lol



Barozi said:
Ryuu96 said:

The only thing One X does better than Series S is resolution IIRC. Series S should have far better framerate, loading speeds, refresh rate, effects, lighting, textures, etc. One X may have a higher number of TF but it's old architecture while Series S is RDNA 2 which comes with a ton of features that One X isn't capable of. RDNA 2 wouldn't have been able to exist for One X back in 2018 so it would have still used older tech.

Series S likely no matter what would have ended up more powerful than One X overall because it can actually take advantage of new tech released in 2020 whilst One X is held back by older tech. If it wasn't for the stock shortage, then I think support for last gen wouldn't last until 2025 and the issue remains of marketing.

Xbox One X would have still been seen as a last gen console and likely dropped the moment Xbox One is dropped, by both consumers and developers, nobody really wants to go when launching a next gen console "you can buy our last gen hardware" and by launching the budget console and high-end console at the same time, they can both take advantage of newer technologies better.

It still remains to be seen if Series S will hold back current gen, but so far multiple developers and Digital Foundry have said it's fine for now, developers have always optimised for multiple platforms from low to high end, they just have to put a little extra work in. At least the thousands of indie developers who support Switch shouldn't mind supporting Series S and the rest (major publishers) easily have the capability to do so as well.

They'll be no holding back if they put the effort in and specifically optimise for both, some won't, Xbox Game Studios/Bethesda Game Studios will.

Idk why some people claim such a thing. It's ridiculous.

The Switch is somewhere between WiiU and Xbox One in power and yet gets ports of pretty much every game out there. Yeah the results are often times pretty bad and they're obviously not even on the level of Xbox One but they exist. Therefore, I don't see how Series S could hold anything back. Every game will be playable on it, even if it's sub 720p with sub 30 FPS (which I don't think will ever happen).

The difference between Switch and Xbox One X is IMO far bigger than the difference between Series S and Series X.

You have to realize though that the Switch rarely gets what you would consider to be a typical, scaled port. Few was the developer who even attempted to scale the same game from Switch all the way up to high-end PC. On the AAA level, scaled Switch ports are practically non-existent, almost all of them have been late ports due to a need to create new, lower than PC low quality assets for Switch. Almost all Switch ports of AAA games have been handled by porting studios rather than by the original developer, and they often take 3 quarters of a year or more to develop due to how long it takes to create lower than PC low quality textures, models, and other assets. The few AAA devs who have attempted to scale the same game from Switch all the way to high end PC, ended up holding back the more powerful consoles and PC as a result. Scaled Switch ports are more common on the AA and Single A/indie level, but no AAA dev in their right mind even tries to scale a game so that it can run on everything from the less than 300 glflop in handheld mode Switch all the way up to 30+ tflop monster PC GPU's. 

Series S won't have the same issues of scaling as Switch for sure, it will take longer into the generation for devs to begin to feel like it is holding them back, but I do think we will reach the point where scaling doesn't work properly anymore and devs will start to feel like making customized Series S ports with lower than PC low assets is a necessity. We have already reached a point where the highest end PC GPU's have 10x more flops than Series S and we are only 2 years into the generation, towards the latter half of this generation we will be seeing mid-range GPU's with more than 10x the flops of Series S, and high end with more than 20x the flops of Series S. Especially since this gen is shaping up to be 1-2 years longer than any previous console generation, Series S will be an issue for some devs later on, mark my words on that. The final 2-3 years of this generation are going to be pretty rough for Series S I suspect, devs will be annoyed by the fact that they are still mandated by Xbox to support it, and we will see lots of ports with framerate issues and sub-720p resolutions. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 27 November 2022

gtotheunit91 said:

One things for sure, processing power isn’t an issue for Series S. It’s literally more powerful than PS5’s processor lol

Think the only thing Series S will suffer in is resolution. Consumers have spoken with their wallets though so publishers will suck it up and support it. Next gen, if there's anything that is particularly very annoying for developers, I'm sure Microsoft will sort that for the next console. But a budget next gen capable console remains a great idea for a consumer standpoint, so I don't see it going anywhere.

Mid-gen we'll probably have a bunch of Series S users upgrading to Series X when it becomes cheaper, but I think folk also like the small size and form factor of Series S, I see a lot of people mention how they have a Series X and S in the same home, or families getting Series S for their children who don't give a shit about stuff like "resolution".



Ryuu96 said:
gtotheunit91 said:

One things for sure, processing power isn’t an issue for Series S. It’s literally more powerful than PS5’s processor lol

Think the only thing Series S will suffer in is resolution. Consumers have spoken with their wallets though so publishers will suck it up and support it. Next gen, if there's anything that is particularly very annoying for developers, I'm sure Microsoft will sort that for the next console. But a budget next gen capable console remains a great idea for a consumer standpoint, so I don't see it going anywhere.

Mid-gen we'll probably have a bunch of Series S users upgrading to Series X when it becomes cheaper, but I think folk also like the small size and form factor of Series S, I see a lot of people mention how they have a Series X and S in the same home, or families getting Series S for their children who don't give a shit about stuff like "resolution".

For sure but that’s also where FSR 2.1 will make a huge difference for Series S throughout the generation.