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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony increasing the price of the PS5 in selected markets

SvennoJ said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

The chip crunch is ending though, and the prices should now come down. TSMC can't continue increasing their prices anymore without alienating their customers. GPU prices are already coming crashing down hard, with most GPUs now being half the price they had half a year ago. CPU prices are also dropping, and both are due to too much offer and too low demand. 

The only ones who are still really under the chip crunch is the automotive industry, but that's due to the chips they use are all on older design processes (14nm and up), which have for the most part been replaced by more modern processes. This is on them though, not the chip fabs, and they need to fix that problem themselves.

So really, the exchange rates coupled with the inflation (making other parts and shipping more expensive) seems to me to be the only valid reason, as chip pricing could only have been an issue until a couple months before the announcement.

The Chip bakers also feel the pressure of inflation
https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/14/intel_plans_price_hikes_for/

So the supply may be coming back, the margins aren't. And still no PS5 in stores :/

That's not really comparable.

Intel's margins crashed down over the years since the release of Ryzen, as they had to make increasingly large chips to be able to compete with AMD. Larger chips => less chips per Wafer => less margin at the same price point. For instance, Kaby Lake (the first competitor to Ryzen) was 125 mm2, but Alder Lake is with 215 mm2 almost twice as large, which means less than half as many chips per wafer, and Raptor Lake will be ~260mm2.

Intel Shareholders are wary because of both the last quarterly report (which was pretty bad) and Intel's fab-building plans (which will cost tens of billions). Raising the prices is mostly just to keep those happy, otherwise the EPS (earnings per share) would collapse and and with them, the market value of Intel proper.



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
SvennoJ said:

The Chip bakers also feel the pressure of inflation
https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/14/intel_plans_price_hikes_for/

So the supply may be coming back, the margins aren't. And still no PS5 in stores :/

That's not really comparable.

Intel's margins crashed down over the years since the release of Ryzen, as they had to make increasingly large chips to be able to compete with AMD. Larger chips => less chips per Wafer => less margin at the same price point. For instance, Kaby Lake (the first competitor to Ryzen) was 125 mm2, but Alder Lake is with 215 mm2 almost twice as large, which means less than half as many chips per wafer, and Raptor Lake will be ~260mm2.

Intel Shareholders are wary because of both the last quarterly report (which was pretty bad) and Intel's fab-building plans (which will cost tens of billions). Raising the prices is mostly just to keep those happy, otherwise the EPS (earnings per share) would collapse and and with them, the market value of Intel proper.

I'll take your word for it, however aren't the PS5 and Series X chips not also pretty large? Hence the Series S sitting in a comfortable (available) position?

Anyway with inflation reaching double digits, I doubt prices will go down. The outlier is the US dollar which gained a lot of value compared to all other currencies. $500 last year is worth $642 today for Sony (converted to Yen, comparing Sept 5 2021 to today). Sony could lower the price in the USA as that increase is over double the worst inflation rate today. Yet people are already pissed the USA didn't get a price hike.

We got a 4% price raise in Canada for the ps5, while the CAD is also worth a lot more today vs the Yen. Not as much as the USA but still 500 CAD a year ago is worth 609 CAD today for Japan.

USA increased 28.4%, no price raise.
Canada increased 21.8%, 4% price raise bringing the price at the same level as the US price.

Components, overseas manufacturing, shipping likely all got more expensive for Sony since the Yen is not doing very well. The Chinese Yuan also increased 19.2% in value vs the Yen. So all that manufacturing in China got more expensive for Sony (while less expensive for MS)



SvennoJ said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

That's not really comparable.

Intel's margins crashed down over the years since the release of Ryzen, as they had to make increasingly large chips to be able to compete with AMD. Larger chips => less chips per Wafer => less margin at the same price point. For instance, Kaby Lake (the first competitor to Ryzen) was 125 mm2, but Alder Lake is with 215 mm2 almost twice as large, which means less than half as many chips per wafer, and Raptor Lake will be ~260mm2.

Intel Shareholders are wary because of both the last quarterly report (which was pretty bad) and Intel's fab-building plans (which will cost tens of billions). Raising the prices is mostly just to keep those happy, otherwise the EPS (earnings per share) would collapse and and with them, the market value of Intel proper.

I'll take your word for it, however aren't the PS5 and Series X chips not also pretty large? Hence the Series S sitting in a comfortable (available) position?

Anyway with inflation reaching double digits, I doubt prices will go down. The outlier is the US dollar which gained a lot of value compared to all other currencies. $500 last year is worth $642 today for Sony (converted to Yen, comparing Sept 5 2021 to today). Sony could lower the price in the USA as that increase is over double the worst inflation rate today. Yet people are already pissed the USA didn't get a price hike.

We got a 4% price raise in Canada for the ps5, while the CAD is also worth a lot more today vs the Yen. Not as much as the USA but still 500 CAD a year ago is worth 609 CAD today for Japan.

USA increased 28.4%, no price raise.
Canada increased 21.8%, 4% price raise bringing the price at the same level as the US price.

Components, overseas manufacturing, shipping likely all got more expensive for Sony since the Yen is not doing very well. The Chinese Yuan also increased 19.2% in value vs the Yen. So all that manufacturing in China got more expensive for Sony (while less expensive for MS)

Oberon (PS5) is 308mm2

Anaconda (XSX) is 360mm2

Lockhart (XSS) is 197mm2

During the  chip crunch, it made perfectly sense to prioritize the production of Lockhart, since Microsoft could get many more chips per wafer, hence more consoles to sell. But the chip crunch is ending fast, and production of the bigger chips got raised significantly now that there is the needed free production space at TSMC for them.

You can already see it when you check the sales of the PS5 and XSX, with the XS outselling last year while the PS5 has catched up again to last year's sales, and both certainly keeping an increasingly large stock at hand for Black Friday and the holiday season in general. Sony also gave a sign to this when they didn't lower their sales expectation for the current financial year, meaning they're expecting the sales to go up from here despite the price increase.

The only point which is really directly hit by the inflation is the shipping. And while this increases the costs, it shouldn't nearly be enough to warrant a 50€ price hike. I was expecting that due to the chip crunch and inflation price cuts would take a long while this gen, but a price increase should never have been on the table in the first place, as there's no real reason for one.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
SvennoJ said:

I'll take your word for it, however aren't the PS5 and Series X chips not also pretty large? Hence the Series S sitting in a comfortable (available) position?

Anyway with inflation reaching double digits, I doubt prices will go down. The outlier is the US dollar which gained a lot of value compared to all other currencies. $500 last year is worth $642 today for Sony (converted to Yen, comparing Sept 5 2021 to today). Sony could lower the price in the USA as that increase is over double the worst inflation rate today. Yet people are already pissed the USA didn't get a price hike.

We got a 4% price raise in Canada for the ps5, while the CAD is also worth a lot more today vs the Yen. Not as much as the USA but still 500 CAD a year ago is worth 609 CAD today for Japan.

USA increased 28.4%, no price raise.
Canada increased 21.8%, 4% price raise bringing the price at the same level as the US price.

Components, overseas manufacturing, shipping likely all got more expensive for Sony since the Yen is not doing very well. The Chinese Yuan also increased 19.2% in value vs the Yen. So all that manufacturing in China got more expensive for Sony (while less expensive for MS)

Oberon (PS5) is 308mm2

Anaconda (XSX) is 360mm2

Lockhart (XSS) is 197mm2

During the  chip crunch, it made perfectly sense to prioritize the production of Lockhart, since Microsoft could get many more chips per wafer, hence more consoles to sell. But the chip crunch is ending fast, and production of the bigger chips got raised significantly now that there is the needed free production space at TSMC for them.

You can already see it when you check the sales of the PS5 and XSX, with the XS outselling last year while the PS5 has catched up again to last year's sales, and both certainly keeping an increasingly large stock at hand for Black Friday and the holiday season in general. Sony also gave a sign to this when they didn't lower their sales expectation for the current financial year, meaning they're expecting the sales to go up from here despite the price increase.

The only point which is really directly hit by the inflation is the shipping. And while this increases the costs, it shouldn't nearly be enough to warrant a 50€ price hike. I was expecting that due to the chip crunch and inflation price cuts would take a long while this gen, but a price increase should never have been on the table in the first place, as there's no real reason for one.

What about the 20% more expensive Yuan vs the Yen? Doesn't the PS5 get manufactured in China? On top of the inflation rate, Sony has to pay 20% more for manufacturing in China vs a year ago. Even worse if China prices their stuff in USD. (I have no idea).

Of course Sony gets a lot of that back by selling PS5 in the USA, yet the Euro only got 7% worth more vs the Yen, The Euro decreased in value vs the Yuan. More expensive manufacturing with net lower returns (vs increased manufacturing costs).

The adjustments are mainly because of exchange rates that have changed a lot, Inflation second, limited supply now third and becoming less of an issue.



Azzanation said:
ConservagameR said:

Remember Nintendo Power? What happened to that? Did Nintendo change how they do consoles? Was it always for the better? Is anyone else allowed to change?

What about Sony and online. Didn't it used to be free? Why did they start charging? Could other companies have made online free? Could it be free now?

You can't say materials shouldn't have a cost to consumers, then say consumers don't want free products. Or do consumers want companies to literally sell them nothing for a price? Seems like a worse deal than $20-$50 more for a PS5.

How often does a big budget game from Sony end up low quality with terrible sales? That may be normal for other companies, but what does XB have to do with this?

Does any company like potential profits being gobbled up by scalpers, who are hated by everyone? I haven't seen Phil say it's great for the industry, so.

The US dollar is still strong. Most products are cheaper there for that reason. Just like how most products have increased in price due to inflation.

Is XB Series X $499 USD everywhere? Nobody pays more? Why not eat those costs? Does MS think they are lesser people? 

Does MS have shareholders? Have they ever complained about XB losses? Does MS not care about the value of their company?

If the competition is so fierce and Sony is so worried, why is Sony raising the price of PS5 most places, knowingly causing this controversy?

I'd agree with you if Sony caused inflation, while MS did not, but I don't believe that's the case. 

Let me answer all your dot points with one sentence. "Be better to raise prices, don't just raise prices." If you don't understand, let me explain.

Everything you have mentioned has improved which justify the prices. Example: PSN use to be free, it also use to be crap. They improved upon the service and now charge for it. Nintendo Power? Removing things does not cost the customers more. You have zero point with that example.

Quality games can come from all price ranges. Just because a game is quality doesn't mean it costs more. Xbox invest just as much in their big titles like Sony does. $100m budget game is still a $100m budget game.

Things can change, however change for the better and charge more if necessary. Sony is giving you the exact same PS5 model for more, zero improvements and infact even less PS5 since they are reducing the weight of it. Why not increase the storage space slightly, or give a little bit more to help justify it.

Sony has given the rest of the world the middle finger by raising the price while keeping the same price in the US even though the US suffers similar issues the rest of the world suffers. Want to know why? Because Sony has to keep good faith with the largest gaming community in the world, if they piss off the US they will lose too much market share. 

Sony also has to do better than last gen to please Shareholders, a much harder feat than Xbox with the Series X/S. And you are paying for it. 

If you disagree, disagree. At the end of the day, you are paying someone else's pockets and supporting it makes you part of the problem. Remember one thing, Sony and PS are still making Millions upon Billions. Maybe not as much as last gen but are still profiting. Instead of eating the cost like most companies do, they want you to pay more. 

As to your prior Nin point, things haven't always been the same. Nintendo Power is no longer the hardware direction, so why is it ok for that to change, since you also imply you're ok with Nintendo making money on the hardware. What about those gamers who lived and breathed Nintendo Power? Why is it only ok for Nin to charge too much and screw over the consumer, but not anyone else?

Was XB One screwing over the consumer until they finally removed the Kinect? Why didn't they leave the Kinect in and drop $100 like a good caring company would? The same reason they didn't include a disc drive in the Series S? What's another $25?

If budget doesn't mean anything when it comes to quality, why make big budget games at all? Why not make a ton of tiny budget games, instead of just a few big budget games, because you'd be far more likely to end up with way more quality based on quantity?

So is online for PC all garbage? It's free right? So it must be garbage? How could it be any good? Does PC use Live or PSN?

You mean change like costs going up due to inflation, and companies explaining that they're raising prices because of that? With the rare company like MS saying they aren't, while not explaining why, because saying, we're worth trillions so it means nothing, would be bad PR?

Both PS and XB charge more for their hardware outside of the US, so they both suck? That's a shame.

XB hasn't ever had to do well for shareholders period. Must be nice getting a free ride.

Isn't supporting something you find reasonable and enjoy, how things are supposed to work? Support them or they'll go away? That's a problem?

If you like your hard earned money going to scalpers to buy even more hardware to scalp at increased prices, at the end of the day, that's your choice. Me personally, I'd rather give it to the gaming company to reinvest in the hobby I enjoy. That's just me.



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the-pi-guy said:

I'm not sure why we're specifically talking about intel, when TSMC, Samsung, etc have similarly talked about raising prices even on older nodes.

Largely because they're aiming to spend 10's of billions each on expanding chip production capabilities. 

But they did so already last year or early this year, so if that would have been the reason, they would have needed to make the announcement earlier, not now.



ConservagameR said:

As to your prior Nin point, things haven't always been the same. Nintendo Power is no longer the hardware direction, so why is it ok for that to change, since you also imply you're ok with Nintendo making money on the hardware. What about those gamers who lived and breathed Nintendo Power? Why is it only ok for Nin to charge too much and screw over the consumer, but not anyone else?

Was XB One screwing over the consumer until they finally removed the Kinect? Why didn't they leave the Kinect in and drop $100 like a good caring company would? The same reason they didn't include a disc drive in the Series S? What's another $25?

If budget doesn't mean anything when it comes to quality, why make big budget games at all? Why not make a ton of tiny budget games, instead of just a few big budget games, because you'd be far more likely to end up with way more quality based on quantity?

So is online for PC all garbage? It's free right? So it must be garbage? How could it be any good? Does PC use Live or PSN?

You mean change like costs going up due to inflation, and companies explaining that they're raising prices because of that? With the rare company like MS saying they aren't, while not explaining why, because saying, we're worth trillions so it means nothing, would be bad PR?

Both PS and XB charge more for their hardware outside of the US, so they both suck? That's a shame.

XB hasn't ever had to do well for shareholders period. Must be nice getting a free ride.

Isn't supporting something you find reasonable and enjoy, how things are supposed to work? Support them or they'll go away? That's a problem?

If you like your hard earned money going to scalpers to buy even more hardware to scalp at increased prices, at the end of the day, that's your choice. Me personally, I'd rather give it to the gaming company to reinvest in the hobby I enjoy. That's just me.

1) I don't understand your point with Nintendo Power and how that even relates to this subject.

2) XB1 was selling at a higher cost due to a bundled product that was valued at $150 (Depending where you are from) So you are paying more for more.

3) Google the most profitable games in history, and you will sadly find out the truth.

4) PC online is awesome, more options, more features, more of more and its free. PSN was unprotected and had a host of issues before the pay wall came in.

5) Xbox has shareholders to please, however its a lot easier to beat your last product if your last product didn't sell as well as it should.

6) You are supporting greed. Might as well high five your land lord for raising the price on your rent because you support the idea. High five the petrol prices going up to while you are at it.

7) Bottom line, offer more or improve the product to charge more. Don't just charge more because a corp gave you reasons. How do you think the rich become richer.

Last edited by Azzanation - on 06 September 2022

the-pi-guy said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

But they did so already last year or early this year, so if that would have been the reason, they would have needed to make the announcement earlier, not now.

They're talking about raising the prices more.

There's probably some pressure in Sony from Sony Group. They've been raising hardware prices in different segments.

If anything, this puts some pressure on AMD, the chip designer, as they're the ones dealing with TSMC, not Sony. But I agree that it's possible AMD will pass the higher costs down to Sony.

Still, that would only be ~$10 per chip, and only starting sometime next year. Raising the prices now is not related to increased chip prices, as TSMC last raised the prices in summer last year.



Azzanation said:
ConservagameR said:

As to your prior Nin point, things haven't always been the same. Nintendo Power is no longer the hardware direction, so why is it ok for that to change, since you also imply you're ok with Nintendo making money on the hardware. What about those gamers who lived and breathed Nintendo Power? Why is it only ok for Nin to charge too much and screw over the consumer, but not anyone else?

Was XB One screwing over the consumer until they finally removed the Kinect? Why didn't they leave the Kinect in and drop $100 like a good caring company would? The same reason they didn't include a disc drive in the Series S? What's another $25?

If budget doesn't mean anything when it comes to quality, why make big budget games at all? Why not make a ton of tiny budget games, instead of just a few big budget games, because you'd be far more likely to end up with way more quality based on quantity?

So is online for PC all garbage? It's free right? So it must be garbage? How could it be any good? Does PC use Live or PSN?

You mean change like costs going up due to inflation, and companies explaining that they're raising prices because of that? With the rare company like MS saying they aren't, while not explaining why, because saying, we're worth trillions so it means nothing, would be bad PR?

Both PS and XB charge more for their hardware outside of the US, so they both suck? That's a shame.

XB hasn't ever had to do well for shareholders period. Must be nice getting a free ride.

Isn't supporting something you find reasonable and enjoy, how things are supposed to work? Support them or they'll go away? That's a problem?

If you like your hard earned money going to scalpers to buy even more hardware to scalp at increased prices, at the end of the day, that's your choice. Me personally, I'd rather give it to the gaming company to reinvest in the hobby I enjoy. That's just me.

1) I don't understand your point with Nintendo Power and how that even relates to this subject.

2) XB1 was selling at a higher cost due to a bundled product that was valued at $150 (Depending where you are from) So you are paying more for more.

3) Google the most profitable games in history, and you will sadly find out the truth.

4) PC online is awesome, more options, more features, more of more and its free. PSN was unprotected and had a host of issues before the pay wall came in.

5) Xbox has shareholders to please, however its a lot easier to beat your last product if your last product didn't sell as well as it should.

6) You are supporting greed. Might as well high five your land lord for raising the price on your rent because you support the idea. High five the petrol prices going up to while you are at it.

7) Bottom line, offer more or improve the product to charge more. Don't just charge more because a corp gave you reasons. How do you think the rich become richer.

1) Because you keep changing what you originally said.

2) Since when was a camera with the console normal? That's not an extra? Extra materials, which should not be a cost to the consumer?

3) Like point 1, where you keep changing what you said. Originally this point was about quality, not profits. Since when have big blockbuster AAA first party games been about profits? They were always there, along with the the hardware to bring you in, then make bank off those other high profit games. 

Sony making big money off their AAA is relatively new, a change, so is that also anti consumer? All those PS4 games were too expensive, along with PS5 games?

4) How could PC online be awesome while free, but PSN was junk? What about $60 XB Live and free Live for PC?

5) Subsidizing billions isn't pleasing unless the outcome is massive profits. Continually making up for billions lost in the past isn't pleasing to shareholders. 

6) Sony didn't cause inflation. Gas companies didn't cause inflation. Why aren't any of these energy mega corps selling gas at 2018 prices?

7) They offer you more, that's worthy, and charge for it, with profits included in the price, based on economics. If anything changes, you get less or more of many things.

Sometimes they try and force you to pay for more for what's in the box even though you don't want everything in the box, and don't want to pay that much or for the extra. Sometimes they try and take away future options, and then flip a switch when they get enough push back. Sometimes this is because they are greedy.



the-pi-guy said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

If anything, this puts some pressure on AMD, the chip designer, as they're the ones dealing with TSMC, not Sony. But I agree that it's possible AMD will pass the higher costs down to Sony.

Still, that would only be ~$10 per chip, and only starting sometime next year. Raising the prices now is not related to increased chip prices, as TSMC last raised the prices in summer last year.

The biggest reason really seems to be down to the exchange rate, seeing as by and large most of the consoles are now roughly equivalent to $500 USD, give or take some error for taxes. 

But I don't agree that the timing is an issue. Raising the price of a console is not a good move regardless of how the console is doing. They're not going to increase a price at the first sign of anything, they're going to wait until they're pretty sure of there being challenges. 

If AMD passes the price on, they are not going to have an immediate reaction to that. They're going to start looking at things like market trends and do quite a bit of analysis to determine whether they should, how much, etc. 

Same thing with the market exchange rates, they would be more likely to wait a bit to see if things stabilize before making the big decision to start raising prices, which historically is a rare thing for consoles. 

Sony has waited long enough, if they see a future where inflation continues to get worse, now is the time to increase.

Imagine if Sony drops a PS5 Slim holiday 2023 for $450. Gamers will rage because PS5 is only $500. The higher the price of the PS5, the higher the Slim can be while not being seen as price gouging. Same goes for a Pro, if it comes, because it would end up crazy expensive regardless. The higher the price of a PS5 now, the more they can charge for a Pro later and make it seem as normal as possible by creating the new norm now.

The US is the only place where prices may remain lower than others due to their economy and being the XB stronghold.