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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

I guess this is something

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A Russian soldier reportedly drove over his colonel with a tank, furious about the bungled war with Ukraine.

Anger among Russian soldiers is growing, with two other service members caught venting about strongman Vladimir Putin’s “bulls**t ” invasion of Ukraine amid reports of heavy losses.

The Russian soldier who was behind the wheel of the tank “blamed the commander of the group, Col. Yury Medvedev, for the deaths of his friends,” Ukrainian journalist Roman Tsimbalyuk said on Facebook."



https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/russian-reportedly-runs-over-his-commander-with-tank-in-protest/news-story/894fc691dca588b9f4317776855d2e6c



 

 

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TallSilhouette said:

With how shameless their gaslighting is and how much of the Russian population it apparently still works on I wonder if Russia would declare victory even if they completely fail to hold on to any territory or change any of the leadership in Ukraine, going home with a historically bad body count. Would it succeed in holding on to majority support in the country and allowing those in power (that aren't made patsies) to keep their positions and heads?

I guess if they will fail to take over Kiev and the rest of Ukraine they will just take over Mariupol which they will if they just try long enough even if they will lose thousands of soldiers more there. And then they will talk about the great victory, how all areas in which Russians had to suffer are free now and how they only fought in some other parts of Ukraine because they had to destroy Ukraine's military bases, bio weapon laboratories and stuff like that and that it obviously never was the goal to take over a whole country. 

I guess that's what Putin will do. 

Or he will just go all in with everything he has (and Russia obviously still has a huge military strengths in Russia) and if that doesn't work he will be a pussy like Hitler was and kill himself and that not even with the enemy in his country...



crissindahouse said:
TallSilhouette said:

With how shameless their gaslighting is and how much of the Russian population it apparently still works on I wonder if Russia would declare victory even if they completely fail to hold on to any territory or change any of the leadership in Ukraine, going home with a historically bad body count. Would it succeed in holding on to majority support in the country and allowing those in power (that aren't made patsies) to keep their positions and heads?

I guess if they will fail to take over Kiev and the rest of Ukraine they will just take over Mariupol which they will if they just try long enough even if they will lose thousands of soldiers more there. And then they will talk about the great victory, how all areas in which Russians had to suffer are free now and how they only fought in some other parts of Ukraine because they had to destroy Ukraine's military bases, bio weapon laboratories and stuff like that and that it obviously never was the goal to take over a whole country. 

I guess that's what Putin will do. 

Or he will just go all in with everything he has (and Russia obviously still has a huge military strengths in Russia) and if that doesn't work he will be a pussy like Hitler was and kill himself and that not even with the enemy in his country...

Lets not hope for Putin to be suicidal.  If a person is at the point where they would want to take their own life, they also might be at the point where they want to take as many people with them as they can.  Just think about the person who kills their whole family before themselves.  



Machiavellian said:
crissindahouse said:

I guess if they will fail to take over Kiev and the rest of Ukraine they will just take over Mariupol which they will if they just try long enough even if they will lose thousands of soldiers more there. And then they will talk about the great victory, how all areas in which Russians had to suffer are free now and how they only fought in some other parts of Ukraine because they had to destroy Ukraine's military bases, bio weapon laboratories and stuff like that and that it obviously never was the goal to take over a whole country. 

I guess that's what Putin will do. 

Or he will just go all in with everything he has (and Russia obviously still has a huge military strengths in Russia) and if that doesn't work he will be a pussy like Hitler was and kill himself and that not even with the enemy in his country...

Lets not hope for Putin to be suicidal.  If a person is at the point where they would want to take their own life, they also might be at the point where they want to take as many people with them as they can.  Just think about the person who kills their whole family before themselves.  

I doubt he will do it because I also doubt he will throw all his military at Ukraine but if that would be the case and they would still not win then I guess it would be also the end for him in Russia and I can't imagine Putin just saying "ok, I'm done and someone else can have my job"



I'm reading from Turkey they reached a partial agreement on 4/6 issues, with one being partial disarment of Ukraine. My question is what partial means? Small enough that it won't impact their defenses but enough that Putin can brag about it at home?



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crissindahouse said:
Machiavellian said:

Lets not hope for Putin to be suicidal.  If a person is at the point where they would want to take their own life, they also might be at the point where they want to take as many people with them as they can.  Just think about the person who kills their whole family before themselves.  

I doubt he will do it because I also doubt he will throw all his military at Ukraine but if that would be the case and they would still not win then I guess it would be also the end for him in Russia and I can't imagine Putin just saying "ok, I'm done and someone else can have my job"

Never underestimate someone in a desperate situation where they would even consider taking their lives.  Its totally unpredictable which is why its scary.  Putin making a blunder or mistake is one thing, desperate Putin suicidal could just about do anything.  I rather have a Putin looking for a way out then a suicidal Putin looking for a way out.  If Putin gets Ukraine to come to terms with at least a few of their issues, if this war continues he probably would take it can claim victory.  This is the best outcome at this stage of development.



After the NATO conference, I'm getting rather perplexed at the different stances Nato leaders seem to be taking as they are either vague or seemingly in conflict with other Nato leaders. Take Biden for instance - use of a chemical weapon by Russia will see a response in kind.

Excuse me? 'Response in kind'? Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to suggest Nato will deploy chemical weapons of their own. Horrible idea.

Then you have Zelensky asking for tanks and planes and UK PM Boris Johnson saying Nato should send they with macron refusing saying it will cross Russia's red line. I can't remember who said it (I think John Bolton) but what exactly is the difference between sending Ukraine armaments versus tanks and planes? Did they not manage to construct a coherent message in their summit yesterday? To single out Macron, his statements really seem to be more focused on pandering to Russia.

Other Nato countries are refusing to send other soviet-era defence systems to Ukraine due to being unable to backfil their own defence. This would require the US to step in and replace those systems which is doesn't seem to be prepared to do. This, combined with reports that Nato leaders were expecting to be supporting a smaller Ukrainian resistance at this stage almost implies that the leaders seem to think it'd be better and easier for their sakes if Ukraine folded.

I can get the reservation - an escalation of this conflict could realistically develop into WW£ (or even a Korean of Vietnam War equivalent which would still be very bad). This isn't something I want either. But there is a fine line in supporting Ukraine between within widening the conflict erring and keeping out and letting Ukraine fall and it feels like Nato are erring too much on the latter side

Last edited by SecondWar - on 25 March 2022

SecondWar said:

After the NATO conference, I'm getting rather perplexed at the different stances Nato leaders seem to be taking as they are either vague or seemingly in conflict with other Nato leaders. Take Biden for instance - use of a chemical weapon by Russia will see a response in kind.

Excuse me? 'Response in kind'? Correct em if I'm wrong but that seems to suggest Nato will deploy chemical weapons of their own. Horrible idea.

Then you have Zelensky asking for tanks and planes and UK PM Boris Johnson saying Nato should send they with macron refusing saying it will cross Russia's red line. I can't remember who said it (I think John Bolton) but what exactly is the difference between sending Ukraine armaments versus tanks and planes? Did they not manage to construct a coherent message in their summit yesterday? To single out Macron, his statements really seem to be more focused on pandering to Russia.

Other Nato countries are refusing to send other soviet-era defence systems to Ukraine due to being unable to backfil their own defence. This would require the US to step in and replace those systems which is doesn't seem to be prepared to do. This, combined with reports that Nato leaders were expecting to be supporting a smaller Ukrainian resistance at this stage almost implies that the leaders seem to think it'd be better and easier for their sakes if Ukraine folded.

I can get the reservation - an escalation of this conflict could realistically develop into WW£ (or even a Korean of Vietnam War equivalent which would still be very bad). This isn't something I want either. But there is a fine line in supporting Ukraine between within widening the conflict erring and keeping out and letting Ukraine fall and it feels like Nato are erring too much on the latter side

Yes you are wrong. That's certainly not what he implied.

If Russia uses chemical weapons, Nato will respond to that, for example by giving Ukraine tanks, planes etc.
Maybe even going as far as actively taking part in the war.



I interpreted Biden's response, based on his decades of saying non-literal, silly, exaggerated stories, and many times eyebrow-raising comments, as such:

-We will shoot down chemical weapons in the air.
-We will destroy facilities/equipment that launch chemical weapons.

And he would limit it to just targeting the chemical stuff, not blowing it up into a full scale war. But to do that, Congress would be outraged without a vote first. Enough of Congress has thrown a fit over not getting says in smaller conflicts, how much bigge of a deal that would be with Russia. Technically, Presidents have some warring flexibility for up to 60 days of fighting, permitting they notify Congress within 48 hours, and have to begin pulling out troops on day 61 I believe. And enough of the population wants us to do a lot more than we are now that he could be embolden to strike those locations if Putin crosses that line, that he may ignore the outrage in Congress.

But if he just strikes targets and doesn't send troops in I guess it won't even trigger that clock.



Ryuu96 said:
Dulfite said:

I'm reading from Turkey they reached a partial agreement on 4/6 issues, with one being partial disarment of Ukraine. My question is what partial means? Small enough that it won't impact their defenses but enough that Putin can brag about it at home?

Got a source for that? I'm not saying I don't believe you but Russia has been leaking stuff lately from the negotiations which favour them, I don't buy that Ukraine has agreed to partial disarming unless it comes with the caveat that UK, France, USA and Turkey form a security pact with Ukraine.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/erdogan-ukraine-and-russia-nearing-consensus-on-4-of-6-key-issues-to-ending-the-war