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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How and When KBM Beats a Controller

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I just cant play shooters (mainly first person), strategy, puzzle or simulation games with a controller which is why I love playing them with a M/K combo.

Great to have options.



    

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Chazore said:
FormerlyTeamSilent13 said:

Same thing with Titanfall 1 and 2. I know for a fact that console players went and beat the top kb+m players at a Titanfall 1 PC tournament with their controllers because it was an article with names and everything back when that game was in its prime. I was one of the top TF1 players on PC (Diamond V rank and 6 k/d vs pilots) using a controller and beat top kb+m players regularly. I do think it was always an advantage for Titanfall and now Halo since it’s been on PC. Not sure about COD because I always played it on xbox until I quit, but I could see it having the same advantage. 

Granted for me learning kb+m would be hard because I have literally never done it my entire life and even my PC is an iMac Pro with a trackpad (not magic mouse). It’s been years since I used a mouse and I have wondered if I should try to learn it, but at the same time a lot of games incentivize me not to bother. I really think it would be like square one so I am just thankful that controller is still supported so well in modern shooters. That being said I would welcome decreased aim assist.

Halo 3 on PC actually had improved the aim assist by lowering it, and people literally complained that it wasn’t ‘fixed exactly like 360’. One of the few things 343i did right (and it was still definitely there to some extent), but 343 caved and made it noob friendly again. Keep in mind with increased FOV and frames it was arguably easier anyway to hit shots even before the “fix”. To be specific on console you could have shots register with a red redicule on the back side of the head. I liked the change to miss because it meant if a player was aiming at back of head it would miss as it should if they are moving away from it…and would hit if their head was moving towards that spot. Logical. but baby controller players wanted it to be like the 360 and always register a hit so now it’s stupid easy to land shot. MCC has a lot of problems like that where they shouldn’t because 343 mess up, but the one time they make a good change controller babies complain.

note to self: edit later, typing this on mobile, can’t see whole post at once to properly word

Apparently that ended in a tie and even then, that debate was never truly settled, as both sides had their advantages and disadvantages but the common theme was aim-assist being part of a crux to help gamepad users (as well as the difficulty of trying to turn 180 degrees and still land successful shots)

https://dotesports.com/general/news/titanfall-exertus-free-refills-pc-console-530

Personally I'm of the belief that aim-assist is a more of a handicap, due to the nature of stick shooting, but at the same time, a game that's designed for gamepad is naturally going to favour those over M+KB.

I was once great with gamepad shooters in the old days, but for years I've been just rolling with the mouse and I cannot really go back to stick shooters, because it feels so clunky to me, compared to mouse aiming (also being able to turn 180 degrees with a simple flick on the mouse feels a lot smoother and quicker than holding down on the right stick for a few seconds). 

Even then those PC teams were just newbie teams. The console team was the best team in the world. They had better game knowledge, teamwork, and broken aim assist. They entered this small tournament thinking it would be easy. And they lost in the semifinals. I bet if they turned off aim assist they would have lost in the first round. A controller is terrible for aiming which is why they need aim assist. Aim assist on console is handicap just as you said. If people that use controllers truly feel they can beat keyboard and mouse players then they should have no problem turning off aim assist.



Sogreblute said:

Even then those PC teams were just newbie teams. The console team was the best team in the world. They had better game knowledge, teamwork, and broken aim assist. They entered this small tournament thinking it would be easy. And they lost in the semifinals. I bet if they turned off aim assist they would have lost in the first round. A controller is terrible for aiming which is why they need aim assist. Aim assist on console is handicap just as you said. If people that use controllers truly feel they can beat keyboard and mouse players then they should have no problem turning off aim assist.

They were from long-term TF2 (as in Team Fortress) players though, which I would consider for something in terms of skill.

Both teams had their differing strategies as well, as the PC players opted for rushing and getting the flags as fast as possible, while the console players wanted to outright spawn camp to then get the flags. Both strats come off as par the course for their respective platform meta (like strategy players in Starcraft mostly opting to rush for one such example). 

I just think we need games to be better designed without the use of aim assist, because it's becoming increasingly obvious that gamepads aren't exactly evolving all that much, that aim assist needs to be left on as the default for games.

This also makes me wonder in just how fun crossplay is to others, because I personally didn't have fun trying to play GTA V with a gamepad on PC, the entire lobby being alerted to me using said gamepad and then me not being allowed to join heists, because they didn't want a PC gamepad user in their group (this was way back in 2015). 



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The advantage of a mouse is not just aiming, I find it much more enjoyable to explore and run around using a mouse. You also have much better awareness of your surroundings as you can do a quick scan, look left, look right while continuing to run forward. A mouse gives the same freedom as looking around with a VR headset on. Controller camera turning is always either slow or messy.

Operating menus, organizing equipment, loot, etc, no contest. Although a lot of games are so controller oriented that basic mouse control suffers, like in Halo Infinite and FH5. Some 'shotcuts' you use all the time simply don't work. Got to back out of the current menu first before being able to click on the tab of another menu for example. Can't simply assign keys to abilities, got to somehow fit some selection wheel template you don't use anyway. Same with Psychonauts 2, erm I have more than 4 keys available on my keyboard, why do I need to keep mapping only 4 abilities to the same keys. TW2 had horrible mouse support. Not only tied to current fps, instead of an independent hardware pointer like every other windows program in existence, yet also lot of baffling menu design choices that were a chore to use with a mouse.

So when KB+Mouse beats a controller, in games that are actually designed with KB+Mouse in mind. And games that simply don't suit controllers like RTS or anything where you frequently select things on a map.

Then you have games where you use all together, FS2020, mouse+kb+controller. Need em all.



hinch said:

One issue I have with the game is the stupidly high aim assist with controller. Its almost nigh close to using an aim bot when a players crosshair reticule is in a close proximity of an enemy player. Iirc one of the top 10 pro players say that controller pro players play on controllers since the AA is too strong.

I wouldn't quite say aimbot, but it does help keep you on target a lot easier.  An aimbot specifically selects a part of the enemy (obviously it's usually the head) to LOCK onto, and aim assist simply moves your cursor towards the general direction of the target without any real lock (if you're aiming towards the feet, aim assist would just slow the cursor down and keep moving you towards said feet).  Just mentioning this because calling aim assist anything like an aimbot is a bit hyperbolic lol

Ryuu96 said:
hinch said:

One issue I have with the game is the stupidly high aim assist with controller. Its almost night close to using an aim bot when a players crosshair reticule is in a close proximity of an enemy player. Iirc one of the top 10 pro players say that controller pro players play on controllers since the AA is too strong.

Yup, there's next to no K&M pros in Halo, even one of the current pros who I would consider to be among the best right now (Snipedown) went as far to say that Halo will never have a K&M pro and someone who played on the highest ranking K&M team in Halo Infinite agreed with him, that aim assist is nasty and Halo has always been a series built more for controller.

I've seen a lot of automatic assumption that M&K would have the advantage in anything FPS based but I would say that definitely isn't the case with Halo Infinite, if anything, M&K have a clear disadvantage.

There's also these stats.

There IS one problem with the stats people keep throwing around: Halo has built its community on consoles and thus its core community is all controller players.  It wasn't until recently that Halo is accessible via PC thanks to MCC, and Halo Infinite is the first Halo I've played with KBM as well.  I used the controller and it was instantly familiar since I've gone through five Halo games with a controller.  This skews the stats dramatically when you have a large part of the community that is decades old using a controller and you suddenly introduce KBM.

FormerlyTeamSilent13 said:
hinch said:

Nice stats. Yeah, its a part of the reason why I went off the game since I really dislike playing competitive FPS's with controllers. And it always felt like I was in a disadvantage when playing with KB+M. Loads of other games have aim assist but Infinite takes it to another level. its great if you're a controller player though.

But yeah playing with KB+M in this game is super punishing if your aim is off; even for a bit. Like missing a shot of two vs a skilled player with controller usually ends up in death.

Same thing with Titanfall 1 and 2. I know for a fact that console players went and beat the top kb+m players at a Titanfall 1 PC tournament with their controllers because it was an article with names and everything back when that game was in its prime. I was one of the top TF1 players on PC (Diamond V rank and 6 k/d vs pilots) using a controller and beat top kb+m players regularly. I do think it was always an advantage for Titanfall and now Halo since it’s been on PC. Not sure about COD because I always played it on xbox until I quit, but I could see it having the same advantage. 

Granted for me learning kb+m would be hard because I have literally never done it my entire life and even my PC is an iMac Pro with a trackpad (not magic mouse). It’s been years since I used a mouse and I have wondered if I should try to learn it, but at the same time a lot of games incentivize me not to bother. I really think it would be like square one so I am just thankful that controller is still supported so well in modern shooters. That being said I would welcome decreased aim assist.

Halo 3 on PC actually had improved the aim assist by lowering it, and people literally complained that it wasn’t ‘fixed exactly like 360’. One of the few things 343i did right (and it was still definitely there to some extent), but 343 caved and made it noob friendly again. Keep in mind with increased FOV and frames it was arguably easier anyway to hit shots even before the “fix”. To be specific on console you could have shots register with a red redicule on the back side of the head. I liked the change to miss because it meant if a player was aiming at back of head it would miss as it should if they are moving away from it…and would hit if their head was moving towards that spot. Logical. but baby controller players wanted it to be like the 360 and always register a hit so now it’s stupid easy to land shot. MCC has a lot of problems like that where they shouldn’t because 343 mess up, but the one time they make a good change controller babies complain.

note to self: edit later, typing this on mobile, can’t see whole post at once to properly word

I know it sounds like it would be hard to learn something "new", but the reason I mention in the video that a mouse is the most intuitive is because you might find yourself surprised at how quickly/easily you end up adapting to KBM.  Of course, we're specifically talking FPS games, but yea: I wouldn't be so scared of the difficulty curve if I were you haha!

Pemalite said:

The best of both worlds is to get a controller to keyboard+mouse adapter to fool the game into thinking you are still using a controller, but you are using a keyboard and mouse, that way you still get the free aim-bot

I caught a little flack in this in my Halo Infinite review, but I'm a person who uses both KBM and controller at the same time in PvP.  This leads me to tell you two things:

1) Like other games, when there is active input from one device, it SHUTS OFF input from the other device.  If I am pressing KBM buttons and aiming my mouse, controller input is completely cut off.

2) Aim assist FIGHTS a mouse, literally no KBM PC player I've ever met has ever wanted aim assist with a mouse and, like me, would instantly turn it off.  I can't remember what game it was a LONGGG time ago, but it had aim assist even for KBM, and all it does is cause you to miscalculate rapid aim flicks because the speed changes and moves.  Thanks to the 1:1 nature, this makes it feel more like its moving your mouse for you, and it's very, very, veryyyy offputting to KBM players hahahaha!

SvennoJ said:

The advantage of a mouse is not just aiming, I find it much more enjoyable to explore and run around using a mouse. You also have much better awareness of your surroundings as you can do a quick scan, look left, look right while continuing to run forward. A mouse gives the same freedom as looking around with a VR headset on. Controller camera turning is always either slow or messy.

Operating menus, organizing equipment, loot, etc, no contest. Although a lot of games are so controller oriented that basic mouse control suffers, like in Halo Infinite and FH5. Some 'shotcuts' you use all the time simply don't work. Got to back out of the current menu first before being able to click on the tab of another menu for example. Can't simply assign keys to abilities, got to somehow fit some selection wheel template you don't use anyway. Same with Psychonauts 2, erm I have more than 4 keys available on my keyboard, why do I need to keep mapping only 4 abilities to the same keys. TW2 had horrible mouse support. Not only tied to current fps, instead of an independent hardware pointer like every other windows program in existence, yet also lot of baffling menu design choices that were a chore to use with a mouse.

So when KB+Mouse beats a controller, in games that are actually designed with KB+Mouse in mind. And games that simply don't suit controllers like RTS or anything where you frequently select things on a map.

Then you have games where you use all together, FS2020, mouse+kb+controller. Need em all.

Technically, looking around IS identical to aiming.  You're making a very similar point!

Naturally, this is about aiming moreso than other games since, as you likely know, the only area of heated debate IS in FPS PvP games.  In FPS PvE or in really anything else entirely, almost nobody talks about or cares who's using what or what's best.  It's primarily only in FPS PvP where people want the playing field to feel "fair", and that in and of itself is a whole new discussion on its own!



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@ZyroXZ2 Halo has been on PC much longer, actually started on PC until MS snatched it up to launch XBox with. My first experience with Halo was on PC. Halo 2 is the firs oen I played with controller. Aim assist is too strong in Halo Infinite, people are not asking to separate the two for nothing.

Btw in racing games it's always controller vs wheel. There it's a lot closer between top players on GT Sport. I don't know what kind of assists it uses apart from smoothing out the controller input (limiting the speed at which the wheel turns) yet one thing is universally accepted in the community, tire wear is somehow always worse on controller, yet it's much easier to drive without TCS with pedals. Maybe TCS is bad for tires, too easy to apply full throttle, let TCS sort it out, which is probably not the best for tires.

Also mechanical keyboards are back big time. Just as important for PC gaming as arcade sticks are for console gaming.



ZyroXZ2 said:
hinch said:

One issue I have with the game is the stupidly high aim assist with controller. Its almost nigh close to using an aim bot when a players crosshair reticule is in a close proximity of an enemy player. Iirc one of the top 10 pro players say that controller pro players play on controllers since the AA is too strong.

I wouldn't quite say aimbot, but it does help keep you on target a lot easier.  An aimbot specifically selects a part of the enemy (obviously it's usually the head) to LOCK onto, and aim assist simply moves your cursor towards the general direction of the target without any real lock (if you're aiming towards the feet, aim assist would just slow the cursor down and keep moving you towards said feet).  Just mentioning this because calling aim assist anything like an aimbot is a bit hyperbolic lol

Okay maybe a little hyperbolic lol. And I mean sure its not going to snap on aim bot for the head for example. But its so strong in this game it kinda a borders on being game breaker for the average PC player not playing on controller and aiming for high ranks (on KB+M). Who has to get extra sweaty to even compete and even then....

Last edited by hinch - on 09 January 2022

There is keyboard and mouse ranked mode on pc. If ranked and high ranks is a concern.

Last edited by green_sky - on 09 January 2022

IMO it never beats a controller in any shooter ever. Fun > winning!



^ Being able to look around freely is more fun than controlling a turret :p