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Forums - Sony Discussion - Creative freedom, bravery, and risk in games development/publishing

I really don't know where the OP is coming from.  None of the big 3 are actually doing hardly anything that is innovative on the software side.  If I had to pick one though it would be Nintendo because of Ring Fit Adventure.  Ring Fit Adventure is actually perpetuating a different kind of paradigm.  That makes it innovative.  Every cinematic game (especially if they are third person shooters) is doubling down on a very established paradigm.  There is nothing innovative about these types of games.

The NES was the most innovative console, because it created or changed the most types of paradigms.  Super Mario Bros revived the console market.  That is a new paradigm.  The Legend of Zelda was a new type of game that lead to the demise of arcades.  That is a new paradigm.  Duck Hunt created a whole genre of light gun games.  That is a new paradigm.  Gyromite...was not innovative though.  It looked like it was doing the most radically different thing of all, but people really didn't want to play it and the R.O.B. type of game died off pretty quickly.  You could call Gyromite "attempted innovation", but it wasn't successful innovation because it didn't create a new paradigm or change an existing one.

What innovative games have come out in the past few years?  Not many.  Ring Fit Adventure is the clearest candidate.  After that, I guess I'd say Animal Crossing, because there are so many more people playing Life Sim games than ever before.  We also have a lot of modern day equivalents of Gyromite like LABO and the various VR games.  These are not really innovative so much as attempts at innovation.  (Trying and failing is better than not trying though.)  Cinematic games are not innovative in the slightest though.  The real point of these games is to show off how powerful modern hardware is.  They are the epitome of the status quo.



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IcaroRibeiro said:
Azzanation said:

I look at TLOU2 the same way i look at The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker. The new SW trilogy movies aren't innovative or risky in anyway and the direction it took with legacy characters and story plot took a massive nose dive compared to what the audience would have preferred or liked. I am a huge SW fan and i am quite vocal on the approach the new movies took. Its nice to add new characters weather they are male or female but to just slaughter old favorites just to push a motive is far from acceptable in my books, this is something i hated with the new SW films. They killed off majority of the old characters and pushed in the new characters without justifying the causes or at least showcasing the audience they actually cared about them. Example: They made Luke Skywalker a coward and it took a TV series to re-justify his character.

I hear the same arguments with Joel, many TLOU fans liked him, he was a badass, yet was killed off so quickly and carelessly which was one of the major factors in the criticism by the public. Its not because Abby is a female, because the other main character Ellie is also a female that is a fan favorite, its the point of killing Joel and now we have to like the new character without a choice. The same thing happen with Halo 5, when everyone was forced to play Agent Locke instead of the chief, it wasn't because Locke was black, it was the fact that gamers wanted to play their hero and Locke hasn't done enough to earn his place just yet. 

It really comes down to good timing. I agree some of the criticism based on TLOU2, SW and Halo 5 is quite ridicules however that's just fanboys using the negativity to their own egos, however we cannot let that blind us on the real issues with these games and movies.

The older characters actors wee pretty old. Killing them was the right thing to do, as they were also old in narrative context. Harrison Ford was specifically direct on his demand to only play Han Solo again if it was the last time. 

Both Han and Luke had nice ending arcs for me, I don't see exactly what make people mad about them, and I'm also a Star Wars fan. I'm just sad Leia was the only one who couldn't get a more satisfying end, as Carrie passed away before most of the movie was filmed 

I also think people get too invested on fictional arcs and characters and starts do get too stressed out with small things. People play new IPs and with new characters all the time, I don't get why the concern to play a different character in the same franchise. Like, I understand Lara Croft is the face of Tomb Rider since the beginning, but why exactly would be so hurtful to play another character? I just wonder 

Spoiler for the TLOU2

Now, that would be a nice social experiment. They should kill off Lara Croft in the next game and replace her with a guy; and to make things even more interesting, they should have us play with the guy that kills her.

People who advocate for "taking risks" in entertainment don't seem to realize that most risky ideas are considered "risky" precisely because they are dumb ideas. Like, sometimes these artists need someone to tell them: "Sweetheart, there is a reason why this has never been done before; it's because it is a crap idea."



AngryLittleAlchemist said:

That The Last of Us 2's biggest controversies were of """forced diversity""" (which is at best a value that the developers have always represented in the series, in the foreground since "Left Behind", and in the background since the original game) and a protagonist swap that people didn't like (something that was done in popular games back in 2001 and 2004) shows how little innovation or risk was actually taken by the game.

If anything, these controversies showcase how stupid a portion of the original fanbase was. Which isn't too particularly surprising with how much people put a thumb up their ass over a fairly barebones - if well executed - story. 

And yea, I guess that casting as wide a net as possible only to alienate a portion later on with a sequel is somewhat "risky", but only in the sense that the original was so safe to begin with. 

Yeah, most of the time I see expressions like "forced diversity", I'm inclined to roll my eyes because the reality of what's been done most of the time is deliberate, un-life-like lack of diversity. It's also just annoying to always be politicized as belonging to a "diversity demographic" as opposed to being part of nature's default demographic or something.

The Last of Us Part II is a game with no clear heroes or villains, that doesn't have a happy ending, that revolves around themes like guilt and trauma and hate and how even an understandable obsession with justice (criminal justice or social justice) can morph into precisely those things, that waters down nothing and forces you, for real reasons, to do lots of things you as the player probably don't want to. It would be controversial even in a world without bigotry. But then you make that same title also the first AAA video game in history to narratively center a lesbian character, add in a character like Abby who many people here at first confused for a man, have her...

Spoiler!
...personally kill the lead character from the previous game...


...and force you to play as her for about 40% of the game to get a glimpse of the world through her eyes, add in a trans character with a more than incidental role, and keep the tension of the storyline flowing the way it's supposed to by NOT going the open world route like most modern 3D adventures do, and viola, you have the formula for the most controversial video game ever released: one that's absolutely beloved by many of us and utterly despised to a distressing level of fanaticism by most everyone else, with few mixed opinions in-between. Game with the largest volume of negative "user" reviews ever posted to Metacritic by a mile, and also the largest volume of player's choice awards by a mile. If it's not that the game is too diverse for some, it's that it's too depressing, too honest, too violent, too sexual (), too relevant (games are just supposed to be fun!), and on and on the list goes forever. That the game plays it safe ain't usually among those many complaints that I see. Opponents of this game seem to overwhelmingly feel that the problem with TLOU2 is that it's not TLOU1 because they're not used to sequels being made for an actual reason beyond the desire to cash in some more on the first game's success. If only instead this were a modern, generic open-world adventure with Joel reprising the lead and characters like Abby and Lev and other newbs totally omitted. Let's be real: that's the frame of mind.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 27 June 2021

chakkra said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

The older characters actors wee pretty old. Killing them was the right thing to do, as they were also old in narrative context. Harrison Ford was specifically direct on his demand to only play Han Solo again if it was the last time. 

Both Han and Luke had nice ending arcs for me, I don't see exactly what make people mad about them, and I'm also a Star Wars fan. I'm just sad Leia was the only one who couldn't get a more satisfying end, as Carrie passed away before most of the movie was filmed 

I also think people get too invested on fictional arcs and characters and starts do get too stressed out with small things. People play new IPs and with new characters all the time, I don't get why the concern to play a different character in the same franchise. Like, I understand Lara Croft is the face of Tomb Rider since the beginning, but why exactly would be so hurtful to play another character? I just wonder 

Spoiler for the TLOU2

Now, that would be a nice social experiment. They should kill off Lara Croft in the next game and replace her with a guy; and to make things even more interesting, they should have us play with the guy that kills her.

People who advocate for "taking risks" in entertainment don't seem to realize that most risky ideas are considered "risky" precisely because they are dumb ideas. Like, sometimes these artists need someone to tell them: "Sweetheart, there is a reason why this has never been done before; it's because it is a crap idea."

Well, I found it an awesome idea and I am greatful someone have the guts to make it work :p

The experience of playing with a supposed villain to see their point of view was a nice exercise, I personally even liked Abby story more than Ellie's (but I like Ellie's gameplay a little more because it's easier to stealth)

People take things that have no real issue attached to it too seriously. When evaluating something is right or wrong thing I just ask two things:

- Is it hurting anybody?

- Does this go against my morals? 

If answer is no for both question, I really don't see the problem, at least in conceptual level. Just do it, I'm curious to see the outcome 



Azzanation said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

1) The older characters actors wee pretty old. Killing them was the right thing to do, as they were also old in narrative context. Harrison Ford was specifically direct on his demand to only play Han Solo again if it was the last time. 

2) Both Han and Luke had nice ending arcs for me, I don't see exactly what make people mad about them, and I'm also a Star Wars fan. I'm just sad Leia was the only one who couldn't get a more satisfying end, as Carrie passed away before most of the movie was filmed 

3) I also think people get too invested on fictional arcs and characters and starts do get too stressed out with small things. People play new IPs and with new characters all the time, I don't get why the concern to play a different character in the same franchise. Like, I understand Lara Croft is the face of Tomb Rider since the beginning, but why exactly would be so hurtful to play another character? I just wonder 

1) No one is unset or disappointed that the characters were killed off. It was how they were killed off, very little effort was put into the characters to justify there deaths. Example: Solo would have been smarter than to walk up to his son who was trained as a Sith. I expected these characters to die, however i walked out very disappointed and a lack of respect to the lore.

2) Luke was seen as a coward in the entire trilogy and i thought the Hologram trick was the best part of the movie, however it was just a Jedi trick and he dies on a rock afterwards.. while Han walked right up to a fully armed Sith, enough said. Lara was unfortunate however her death wouldn't have been any better. The new movies did not do justice to these characters at all. 

3) The issue isn't about new characters being implemented, its how they are forced in. You even said it yourself, Tomb Raider is about Lara Croft, imagine the next Tomb Raider game starring a Black woman just for the sake of having a black woman in the game? Sure ill still play it but the question is why? Halo learnt this with Halo 5, when they tried to force their audience to like Locke and no one gave a shit about him. 

If these companies want to throw in new characters than they need to do it right, instead what we have been seeing is companies grabbing the old characters and throwing them in the bin with very little effort. You cant just throw Superman in the bin and replace him. 

1) I disagree. And unlike you I found Han's death an unexpected twist, as I was quite convinced he was going make Ben switch sides. It worked pretty well for me  because I left the theater really shocked. I'm on the side if I felt the emotions creators wanted me to feel, then they did a great job. That's why I like series and games that touch my feelings, in positive or negative ways

2) Disagree too, Luke last fight scene was fucking cool and badass, and his death was peaceful and warm, I liked his last dialogue with Leia too

3) I guess every new single addition in gaming is forced unless they are optional so you have a bad argument here. Your question about why changing the main character is also weird, why change anything? Sometimes creators wants to experiment a new story or concept, sometimes they want to please another audience, sometimes they are just sick tired of making the exact same shit over and over, there are many reasons to change. If anything I find more logical to change the main character in story driven games then keep the same characters over and over, rebooting their story and creating actual parallel dimensions. 



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coolbeans said:
Leynos said:

The term "hardcore gamer" is cringe and needs to be dropped from the vocabulary of people. I hate the term in general but found it laughable at the general use of it since the 7th gen usually means the exact opposite. Imagine someone goes to a movie and comes out saying "I saw Avengers so I'm a hardcore movie fan!"


Hardcore gamer belongs in the same trash bin as ___ Killer (remmeber terms like "Halo Killer" ?) and Casual gamer.

That's fair.  Although it's linguistically silly, I think it's fair to delineate casual/dedicated like it's done in other mediums.  "Bookworm" & "Cinephile" are useful and don't sound like they were concocted in a Mountain Dew corporate meeting.

"Bookworm" and "cinephile" sound like appropriated insults, whereas in contrast "hardcore gamer" sounds like one thinks more highly of themselves than of others. Maybe that's what gamers need: an insult to appropriate.



Jaicee said:
coolbeans said:

That's fair.  Although it's linguistically silly, I think it's fair to delineate casual/dedicated like it's done in other mediums.  "Bookworm" & "Cinephile" are useful and don't sound like they were concocted in a Mountain Dew corporate meeting.

"Bookworm" and "cinephile" sound like appropriated insults, whereas in contrast "hardcore gamer" sounds like one thinks more highly of themselves than of others. Maybe that's what gamers need: an insult to appropriate.

For a non native speaker bookworm sounds like a disease and cinephile sounds like a psychological or social pathology 



Mnementh said:

As mentioned before, I see that Death Stranding has some creativity to it. But the point also is: Sony never would've greenlighted it, without such a name like Kojima attached to it. And that is the point: in the past they greenlighted games like Loco Roco and Patapon. That is why this quote by Jim Ryan pisses me off as it is. Because I stand by it: Sony is the least creative they have been since entering the gaming console space.

...

Microsoft of all companies is bolder than Sony. Sure, they have their safe bets with Forza and Halo. But then they have Flight simulator, which pushes technical innovation at something new than the usual "more polygons, more effects". It is also not the usual gameplay. And while Starfield and Redfall look like what you expect from the industry, MS still has games like Psychonaut, Grounded or 12 minutes.

I've responded to most of what you wrote in other posts around this thread, but just wanted to respond to the stuff quoted above briefly.

I have no formed opinion of Jim Ryan as yet. He mouths some phrases that I like, but also sometimes sounds more like a typical corporate exec to me. We'll see. All I've got to say about that subject at this time.

Anyway, as to the idea that a game like Death Stranding wouldn't have been greenlit if not for the Kojima name...mmm, possible, but I don't know. I would just say that what I see is the way Hideo Kojima was treated by Konami versus the way he's treated by Sony and the contrast is night and day.

What I see from Sony right now is them publishing games (like Death Stranding) that introduce whole new genres, games (like Returnal) that bring previously obscure genres like roguelikes and innovative story structures into the AAA gaming scene, the first AAA video game ever to center a lesbian character, sequels that radically challenge assumptions about the original title in a franchise, etc. I'm just wanting that to continue whether it makes a lot of money or not. That's all I'm really getting at here.



coolbeans said:
Jaicee said:

"Bookworm" and "cinephile" sound like appropriated insults, whereas in contrast "hardcore gamer" sounds like one thinks more highly of themselves than of others. Maybe that's what gamers need: an insult to appropriate.

Oh really?  I honestly never thought of either as pejorative.  I like bookworm especially b/c there's an actual history behind insects (weren't actually worms) eating and boring through book pages.  "Cinephiles" is interchangeable with "film buff" too, so that's another option.

Maybe it's just how it sounds to my ears. Is "game buff" an option? I dunno, sounds a little weird and almost male-specific, doesn't it?

I mean really just calling ourselves gamers should be fine, I think. I think you'll find that in surveys on the subject, so-called casual gamers just don't identify with the term gamer at all. They just don't think of themselves that way, just like casual moviegoers probably don't go around calling themselves moviegoers or "casual athletes" who aren't professionals or league-joining dedicated hobbyists but maybe just play the occasional game of ball to be social or for the exercise don't really call ourselves athletes. "Casual gamer" is just a term we impose on other people who don't view themselves as gamers just because they play a game or two on occasion.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 27 June 2021

JWeinCom said:

1. You're entitled to your opinion (I really liked Octopath) but a lot of the stuff you're saying is more about the overall quality than whether or not it was a risky venture.

2. I disagree.

3. Because the conversation wasn't about representation, it's about risk. I believe your argument was that making a game with a female lead is risky because most of the best selling games are males and male led games tend to sell better and therefore having a female lead is not the surest path to success. Likewise, most games do not feature sprite based graphics and those that do tend to sell less than games that don't, so following the same logic, choosing to do so would similarly be brave or risky.

Basically, for pretty much every game, you can come up with 4-5 ways that it doesn't follow the most successful industry trends. I chose to use Octopath as an example for consistency's sake, but for most games I could probably come up with 5 things it does that don't follow the most successful trends.

4. The thing that's most relevant to whether or not the project is risky are the things that would have a pronounced effect on its sales, and that would be mostly what is visible to prospective buyers. The thing that is most prominent in the game's marketing is the timeloop mechanic (which sort of implies multiple playtrhoughs will be required to get the full picture). I'll just grant for the sake of argument that the story is on the whole very unique and creative and excellently done. I still don't know why it would logically follow that the game was especially risky and brave for Sony to publish. 

5. I thought the point of the list was to demonstrate how Returnal was a sign that Sony is particularly brave, risky, and gives devs creative freedom? If your only point in mentioning the price is that Sony overpriced the game, then ok, but I feel like that's kind of off topic.

As far as Nintendo goes, I don't think I ever suggested that you dislike them. But I don't agree that Nintendo is overall less brave or risk averse than Sony, or that you've demonstrated that to be the case.

What I want is what I've asked for. Some intelligible way to determine to determine when games are risky or brave. Doesn't necessarily have to be objective (would be nice though), but it would have to be something more than what's given. What we have here are three examples of very different games that are considered risky and somewhat contradictory reasons. Basically I get that you're arguing that developers/publishers should make more games that are like the three you mention, but I can't figure out what that is.

If you can't really explain what makes games brave/free/risky and are just basing it on gut feeling, then fine. You're entitled to your opinion, but there's just no further conversation to be had. Based on my personal feelings, I think Nintendo is the braver/riskier developer. Is there a way to determine who's opinion is better supported or is it just my feelings vs yours?

K, finally down to the last message I wanted to respond to.

I'm looking to wrap up my part in this conversation since it doesn't really seem to be going anywhere. I'm not going to waste my time with another itemized response that's just going to be dismissed anyway. I just wanted to say that heart is what I value in a game the most. Like I want people to make games that they want to play, not games that are made primarily to sell. Production for use, not production for exchange. If a game conveys that feeling to me, I can appreciate it whether or not it achieves everything it sets out to and regardless of whether I agree or not with any thematic message it may contain. It's the method that made this medium decades ago before there were all these focus groups and development costs shot through the roof. I don't know how to gauge that objectively, it's just a feeling that I get and look for signs for. Asking me to quantify that in a strictly objective way is impossible. Just doing what I can.