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Forums - Gaming - Will Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 big the biggest leap gaming has yet to see?

Peh said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

0 Dimensional - a point (a dot)
1 Dimensional - part of a line; a line segment (a stick)
2 Dimensional - part of a plane; often polygons (especially in video games).  Two dimensional shapes have a one dimensional border like a line segment or a curve.  This defines the two dimensional interior.
3 Dimensional - part of space, often polyhedrons (especially in video games).  Three dimensional shapes have two dimensional borders such polygons.  These borders define the three dimensional interior.  When you see calculations about number of polygons rendered they are talking about the exterior of a shape.  More polygons enables more smoothness and definition.

I'm not into that dimension stuff, but a dot has to appear at least in 1 dimension in order to be recognised as a dot. 

You are thinking too literally.  If we are going to be that literal then there is no 1D or 2D.  Everything in reality is 3D.  A sheet of paper is 3D, because it has thickness even if it is very small.  The TV screen is also 3D because the screen has a thickness just like the sheet of paper.

I am speaking in mathematical terms.  In mathematical terms, a dot has no dimension.  Like when you graph a point with (x, y) coordinates, the point is considered to have no dimension.  We have to draw it big enough to see it, but it is considered to have no dimension.



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JWeinCom said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

The paddles are 1 dimensional and technically the ball is 0 dimensional.  (A point is zero dimensional.)  Two dimensional objects have an interior.  Their borders are one dimensional.  That is what makes something a two dimensional object.  It has to have an interior.  Also, the controller on Pong is one dimensional.  You can only move up or down. 

That is why I'm saying Pong is a 1D game.  It has nothing to do with what happens on screen.  We call Mario 64 a 3D game, but it is still on a 2D screen.    I'm saying Pong is 1D, because the graphics and controls are 1D.  The graphics of Mario 64 are 3D, and it uses an analogue stick.  That is why we call it 3D.  Pong uses 1D graphics and 1D controls.  

One dimension is like the x-axis.  You could move left-right only or maybe up-down only.  Moving in all 4 directions is 2D.

Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width.  But your math teacher is still going to tell you it has no dimension, because they are talking about the concept of a shape and not the literal height and width.

No, I am being perfectly honest.  The biggest mistake I've made is that I misjudged how much (or little) people understand geometry.

A square has an interior, and so does a rectangle.  That is why the objects in Pong are not 2D.  The controls are clearly not 2D either.  Gaming started out as purely 1D in the sense that the graphics and controls were purely in 1D.

Here is a quick geometry lesson.  Go ask any mathematician and you may be shocked that they tell you the exact same thing.

0 Dimensional - a point (a dot)
1 Dimensional - part of a line; a line segment (a stick)
2 Dimensional - part of a plane; often polygons (especially in video games).  Two dimensional shapes have a one dimensional border like a line segment or a curve.  This defines the two dimensional interior.
3 Dimensional - part of space, often polyhedrons (especially in video games).  Three dimensional shapes have two dimensional borders such polygons.  These borders define the three dimensional interior.  When you see calculations about number of polygons rendered they are talking about the exterior of a shape.  More polygons enables more smoothness and definition.

So if you look at Pong, Generation 1, it is limited by 1D graphics and controls.  It is just two line segments (1D) hitting a dot (0D), and you can only move up or down (1D).  This is very similar to how the NES is limited by 2D graphics and controls.  There isn't much 1D or 3D in NES games.  It as pure 2D as you can get. (Some late games had parallax scrolling.  That's about it.)  The SNES is also considered a 2D system, but it is starting to push the envelope into 3D: crude games like Star Fox, character models like Donkey Kong, and tons and tons of parallax scrolling.  It's trying to push into 3D, but it's still very limited to fundamentally 2D graphics and controls.  The Atari 2600 is very much like this with respect to 1D.  It really is trying to push into 2D, probably even more than the SNES is pushing into 3D, but so many games are limited to line segments and dots, 1 dimensional graphics.  There are also plenty of games where you can only move left or right, 1 dimensional controls.  It's trying hard to be 2D, but there are still lots of 1D limitations on the games.

Graphics are not really 2D until you have an interior though.  One big reason that Dragon Quest became popular was because of the art of Akira Toriyama, who also created Dragon Ball.  The NES was the first system where his art could have been relevant.  NES characters had an interior and that allowed him to make all of those Dragon Quest creatures that are still used today.  His art would have been wasted on a system like the Atari 2600 where the characters do not have an interior, and he would most have had to work with something like stick figures or other crude shapes.  Graphically, an interior is a very important distinction.

"Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width."

Uhhhhhhhh...

A dot has dimensions. It doesn't just "technically" have length and width, it actually does have length and width. If something has length and width it is two dimensional.

A point does not have any size or dimensions, but a point is not the same as a dot. A dot is a tangible symbol that represents a point. 

The ball in pong is not a point. It's not even supposed to represent a point. A point is a location in space, not something that bounces around on paddles. 

Like the dot your teacher draws, the ball in pong has length and width. It is two dimensional. If it was zero dimensional, we could not see it. If you could somehow "hit" an object with 0 dimensions then that's some kind of witchcraft.

Likewise, the paddles are not line segments. A line segment is a series of points. Theoretically, a line segment would have no width, but we cannot actually draw something with zero width. The thing that we do draw (which confusingly is also called a line segment) has width. 

The paddles in pong again aren't even an attempt to represent something with zero width. Those babies are thicc. They clearly do not have zero width.

They are made of four line segments. There is an interior space between the line segments. The fact that the interior is the same color as the sides does not mean there is no interior. They are rectangles. They have two sets of parallel sides that are equal in length, and four right angles.

The ball and the paddles all have length and width. That is evident based on the fact that we can see them. I can measure the area of all three. They all take up a definite amount of space on the plane. They are all two dimensionals.

I would indeed absolutely be shocked if a mathematician told me differently.

This post is purely a courtesy for your benefit. I'm not actually going to start arguing over whether something that we can clearly see takes up two dimensional space on a plane is actually zero dimensional.

Heh, you really want to tear this whole 1D/2D thing apart with a fine toothed comb.  I am just applying the same standards to the 1D/2D distinction as the 2D/3D distinction.

If I am going to understand where you are coming from, then I need to know how you define 3D gaming.  Most people mean Generation 5 games like Mario 64.  But 3D doesn't really mean 3D in every way.  The screen is 2D.  It is not like the 3DS or a VR system.  Also, an analogue stick is not even a fully 3D controller.  It's just a more precise 2D controller compared to a d-pad.  The analogue stick doesn't move in 3 dimensions.  The Wii remote is actually a 3D controller, because we can move our arm in 3 dimensions.  On top of this, the vast majority of PS1 games did not even require an analogue stick.

Do you consider Generation 5 to be the 3D generation?  If so why?  I consider graphics and the analogue stick to be the changes.  Is there something I missed?  It should be clear that 3D does not mean 3D in every single way.  It is more about the types of shapes that are drawn, how the shapes interact with one another and to a lesser extent the change in controls.

It should also be clear that we are talking in mathematical terms and not pure reality terms.  2D does not exist in pure reality.  Everything in reality is 3D no matter how narrow/thin it may be.  That is why this argument, "we could not see a 1D object" argument is a nonsense argument.  1D and 0D exist in mathematical terms, just like 2D only exists in mathematical terms.  If we are talking pure reality, then there is no 2D either.  2D only makes sense in mathematical terms.



Ka-pi96 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

You are thinking too literally.  If we are going to be that literal then there is no 1D or 2D.  Everything in reality is 3D.  A sheet of paper is 3D, because it has thickness even if it is very small.  The TV screen is also 3D because the screen has a thickness just like the sheet of paper.

I am speaking in mathematical terms.  In mathematical terms, a dot has no dimension.  Like when you graph a point with (x, y) coordinates, the point is considered to have no dimension.  We have to draw it big enough to see it, but it is considered to have no dimension.

You're not thinking literally enough. Sure you can theorise 0 or 1 dimensional things but games aren't theoretical. The graphics rendered on screen can't be anything less than 2 dimensional otherwise there would be nothing to see.

Games are just 0s and 1s that simulate a fictional reality.  Games, by their very nature, are theoretical.  On the other hand, if we are purely literal, then 2D objects don't exist.  If we ignore theory, then everything is 3D.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
JWeinCom said:

"Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width."

Uhhhhhhhh...

A dot has dimensions. It doesn't just "technically" have length and width, it actually does have length and width. If something has length and width it is two dimensional.

A point does not have any size or dimensions, but a point is not the same as a dot. A dot is a tangible symbol that represents a point. 

The ball in pong is not a point. It's not even supposed to represent a point. A point is a location in space, not something that bounces around on paddles. 

Like the dot your teacher draws, the ball in pong has length and width. It is two dimensional. If it was zero dimensional, we could not see it. If you could somehow "hit" an object with 0 dimensions then that's some kind of witchcraft.

Likewise, the paddles are not line segments. A line segment is a series of points. Theoretically, a line segment would have no width, but we cannot actually draw something with zero width. The thing that we do draw (which confusingly is also called a line segment) has width. 

The paddles in pong again aren't even an attempt to represent something with zero width. Those babies are thicc. They clearly do not have zero width.

They are made of four line segments. There is an interior space between the line segments. The fact that the interior is the same color as the sides does not mean there is no interior. They are rectangles. They have two sets of parallel sides that are equal in length, and four right angles.

The ball and the paddles all have length and width. That is evident based on the fact that we can see them. I can measure the area of all three. They all take up a definite amount of space on the plane. They are all two dimensionals.

I would indeed absolutely be shocked if a mathematician told me differently.

This post is purely a courtesy for your benefit. I'm not actually going to start arguing over whether something that we can clearly see takes up two dimensional space on a plane is actually zero dimensional.

Heh, you really want to tear this whole 1D/2D thing apart with a fine toothed comb.  I am just applying the same standards to the 1D/2D distinction as the 2D/3D distinction.

If I am going to understand where you are coming from, then I need to know how you define 3D gaming.  Most people mean Generation 5 games like Mario 64.  But 3D doesn't really mean 3D in every way.  The screen is 2D.  It is not like the 3DS or a VR system.  Also, an analogue stick is not even a fully 3D controller.  It's just a more precise 2D controller compared to a d-pad.  The analogue stick doesn't move in 3 dimensions.  The Wii remote is actually a 3D controller, because we can move our arm in 3 dimensions.  On top of this, the vast majority of PS1 games did not even require an analogue stick.

Do you consider Generation 5 to be the 3D generation?  If so why?  I consider graphics and the analogue stick to be the changes.  Is there something I missed?  It should be clear that 3D does not mean 3D in every single way.  It is more about the types of shapes that are drawn, how the shapes interact with one another and to a lesser extent the change in controls.

It should also be clear that we are talking in mathematical terms and not pure reality terms.  2D does not exist in pure reality.  Everything in reality is 3D no matter how narrow/thin it may be.  That is why this argument, "we could not see a 1D object" argument is a nonsense argument.  1D and 0D exist in mathematical terms, just like 2D only exists in mathematical terms.  If we are talking pure reality, then there is no 2D either.  2D only makes sense in mathematical terms.

"Heh, you really want to tear this whole 1D/2D thing apart with a fine toothed comb."

No, I really don't.

There's a picture of pong. The image of the paddles and the ball all have size and therefore are not zero dimensional. They all have length and width and are not one dimensional.

We can be sure they have at least two dimensions. That's as far as we need to go to disprove your claim. If you want to argue that they are actually three dimensional, you'd have to demonstrate that they have depth, and I'm not sure how we'd do that.

Whether 3D images can be displayed on a flat plane is a more complex question, but if we can't get definitions on points, line segments, and rectangles down, I'm not gonna go there.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 07 October 2020

Hynad said:
Azzanation said:

You missed my entire point of my post, and i am not surprised coming from you.

I didn’t miss anything. I corrected you when you downplayed what the Ratchet and Clank game on PS4 is. Which is a remake/reimagining, not a remaster like Dark Souls Remastered, or the Master Chief Collection, or the Uncharted Collection.

Well for starters, do you actually think by starting a conversation with the word "Trolling" and calling someone a "dumbass" is a way to start a decent convo? If so, than you might actually have bigger problems.

Firstly i used the term Remaster as the first thing to come to mind, i have never seen anyone call the game Ratchet and Clank Re-Imagining or what ever mambo jumbo you like to use to describe it. It was nothing more than an example. The fact you took offense to that because someone didn't match the Remake, Remaster, Re-Imagining, Reboot and Re-bbqlollgbtq+ term over a video game topic is pretty sad in my opinion, but ill digress.

But if you want me to address your point, the gap between current and next gen can’t be properly gauged until the launch and cross-gen period is over. Launch games are usually rushed or don’t share the same [lenghty] production period as titles that come later during the gen.

You would have a point IF Mario 64 wasn't a launch title for the N64. All games improve over the time of a generation, this is nothing new. All gens are the same in this regard. 

And while your picture of Ratchet makes both look quite similar, a closer look shows that there are quite a bit more details in the model, despite it being a cartoon character.

That's not the point that is being made here. Of course their is improvements, that's expected. No one is denying that the comparison doesn't look better between PS4 and PS5.

Would you say there’s barely any leap between Wii’s Super Mario Galaxy and the Switch’s Super Mario Odyssey because Mario still looks mostly the same?

This isn't about Ratchet and Clank, It was just an example. Use any example you like. Only reason i used Ratchet and Clank is because its one main franchise that came to mind that has a PS4 and a PS5 game. Want me to use Spiderman? The results will be the same.

That would be disingenuous, don’t you think? Because while the cartoon character who now appears on systems that can render it mostly as well as in its CGI renders, the rest of the visual fidelity and effects going on at once in the screen have improved quite a bit between the Wii games and the Switch.

Than you basically agree with my point that next gen leap wont be bigger than the transition to 2D to 3D. Especially Cartoon characters which have basically reach their peak, looking better starts to look minor hence my entire post and comparisons used.

So, sure, Ratchet still looks like Ratchet (even though its rendering has improved gen over gen), but the rest of what goes on around him have leaped forward quite a lot from the PS4 game to the PS5s. And things will only get better from there as the gen goes on.

So the bottom line is, does it look like a bigger jump from 2D to 3D? No. Seems like it isn't.. yet. That's not a bad thing either, its just a hard thing to surpass such a revolutionary transition.

Answers in BALD above.

My opinion, i expect the same games with better graphics, similar to the gen before this, to the gen before that. That's just my expectation. My mind will still be blown away by upcoming titles however from what i have seen so far, nothing shown right now looks like it cannot be done on current hardware. Its a lot different to Mario 64 running on the SNES hardware, it just simply couldn't be done before. Its why its not comparable.

Last edited by Azzanation - on 07 October 2020

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It's going to be hard to top the transition from 2D to 3D.

However, it feels like PS5/ Series X is a much larger leap than PS4/ XOne.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
Peh said:

I'm not into that dimension stuff, but a dot has to appear at least in 1 dimension in order to be recognised as a dot. 

You are thinking too literally.  If we are going to be that literal then there is no 1D or 2D.  Everything in reality is 3D.  A sheet of paper is 3D, because it has thickness even if it is very small.  The TV screen is also 3D because the screen has a thickness just like the sheet of paper.

I am speaking in mathematical terms.  In mathematical terms, a dot has no dimension.  Like when you graph a point with (x, y) coordinates, the point is considered to have no dimension.  We have to draw it big enough to see it, but it is considered to have no dimension.

If you go with (x,y) then you gave your dot 2 dimensions by literally saying the dot is at (x,y). You located it at the coordinates of (x,y). That can only be done within a dimension. If you see the dot or not, doesn't matter at this point. 



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

I keep reading 2D to 3D was the biggest transition. However when was that transition? We had 3D vector graphics games, Battlezone 1980 vector graphics, I Robot 1984 polygons, Wolfenstein 3D 1992 had textures, Descent 1994 was 6DoF, and we still have very successful 2D games.

So what is considered to be the transition to 3D?



SvennoJ said:
I keep reading 2D to 3D was the biggest transition. However when was that transition? We had 3D vector graphics games, Battlezone 1980 vector graphics, I Robot 1984 polygons, Wolfenstein 3D 1992 had textures, Descent 1994 was 6DoF, and we still have very successful 2D games.

So what is considered to be the transition to 3D?

3d-acceleration hardware which allowed to push much much more polygons. So PS1, N64, Saturn, 3DFx, combined with 3d-APIs like Direct3D, OpenGl, Glide.

Most 3d-games before that were experimental.



JWeinCom said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Heh, you really want to tear this whole 1D/2D thing apart with a fine toothed comb.  I am just applying the same standards to the 1D/2D distinction as the 2D/3D distinction.

If I am going to understand where you are coming from, then I need to know how you define 3D gaming.  Most people mean Generation 5 games like Mario 64.  But 3D doesn't really mean 3D in every way.  The screen is 2D.  It is not like the 3DS or a VR system.  Also, an analogue stick is not even a fully 3D controller.  It's just a more precise 2D controller compared to a d-pad.  The analogue stick doesn't move in 3 dimensions.  The Wii remote is actually a 3D controller, because we can move our arm in 3 dimensions.  On top of this, the vast majority of PS1 games did not even require an analogue stick.

Do you consider Generation 5 to be the 3D generation?  If so why?  I consider graphics and the analogue stick to be the changes.  Is there something I missed?  It should be clear that 3D does not mean 3D in every single way.  It is more about the types of shapes that are drawn, how the shapes interact with one another and to a lesser extent the change in controls.

It should also be clear that we are talking in mathematical terms and not pure reality terms.  2D does not exist in pure reality.  Everything in reality is 3D no matter how narrow/thin it may be.  That is why this argument, "we could not see a 1D object" argument is a nonsense argument.  1D and 0D exist in mathematical terms, just like 2D only exists in mathematical terms.  If we are talking pure reality, then there is no 2D either.  2D only makes sense in mathematical terms.

"Heh, you really want to tear this whole 1D/2D thing apart with a fine toothed comb."

No, I really don't.

There's a picture of pong. The image of the paddles and the ball all have size and therefore are not zero dimensional. They all have length and width and are not one dimensional.

We can be sure they have at least two dimensions. That's as far as we need to go to disprove your claim. If you want to argue that they are actually three dimensional, you'd have to demonstrate that they have depth, and I'm not sure how we'd do that.

Whether 3D images can be displayed on a flat plane is a more complex question, but if we can't get definitions on points, line segments, and rectangles down, I'm not gonna go there.

Heh, you may not have read my original point, so let me go back to that.  I'm saying the transition from Generation 2 to 3 is the biggest.  The reasons are

1) Graphics - Transition from dots and sticks to actual 2D shapes like Mario and Link.  Of course if I call these dots and sticks 1D, then everyone has a hissy fit, but my point is that a character like Mario on NES has a hell of a lot more graphical depth than Pitfall on Atari 2600.
2) NES games had music.  Most Atari 2600 games did not.
3) Most Atari games had gameplay that was score-based, like arcade games, while NES games came to be about getting to the end of the game.
4) This change in gameplay lead to the downfall of the arcade.

This was my original point as it pertains to the topic of this thread.  For some reason people seem to really want to focus on the first point and I don't know why.

But to try to clarify with respect to 1D/2D or 2D/3D, my point is that people don't have any problem calling Generation 5 the 3D Generation even though there are lots of aspects that aren't really 3D.  I was using an analogy to show how early gaming went from 1D to eventually 2D on the NES, but at that point several people (including yourself) got very rigid about what 1D had to be even though people aren't terribly rigid with how they define 3D on the PS1 or N64.  A line segment is a one dimensional shape and early gaming was full of line segments.  Once we got to the NES, we stopped seeing line segments.

Last edited by The_Liquid_Laser - on 07 October 2020