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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Will Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 big the biggest leap gaming has yet to see?

For folks saying nothing can beat 2D to 3D transition - VR easily can, we're just not quite there yet.

I'm not convinced current push for VR can do it, no matter the resolution, FOV angle, eye tracking and everything else - sure, it's nice, I like it, but it is still very limited experience. However, I do believe that, eventually, in a decade or two, VR will end up as Direct to Brain type of thing...and that will be the biggest jump ever.



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Azzanation said:
Hynad said:

Ratchet and Clank on PS4 isn’t a Remaster, dumbass.

You missed my entire point of my post, and i am not surprised coming from you.

I didn’t miss anything. I corrected you when you downplayed what the Ratchet and Clank game on PS4 is. Which is a remake/reimagining, not a remaster like Dark Souls Remastered, or the Master Chief Collection, or the Uncharted Collection.

But if you want me to address your point, the gap between current and next gen can’t be properly gauged until the launch and cross-gen period is over. Launch games are usually rushed or don’t share the same [lenghty] production period as titles that come later during the gen.

And while your picture of Ratchet makes both look quite similar, a closer look shows that there are quite a bit more details in the model, despite it being a cartoon character.

Would you say there’s barely any leap between Wii’s Super Mario Galaxy and the Switch’s Super Mario Odyssey because Mario still looks mostly the same?

That would be disingenuous, don’t you think? Because while the cartoon character who now appears on systems that can render it mostly as well as in its CGI renders, the rest of the visual fidelity and effects going on at once in the screen have improved quite a bit between the Wii games and the Switch.

So, sure, Ratchet still looks like Ratchet (even though its rendering has improved gen over gen), but the rest of what goes on around him have leaped forward quite a lot from the PS4 game to the PS5s. And things will only get better from there as the gen goes on.

Unrelated: Lol at the 1D game comment.

Last edited by Hynad - on 07 October 2020

Why does it say "Playstation 5 big" in the title? What about the PS5 small? Will there be a medium?



Hunting Season is done...

After reading this thread, I now understand why some people believe the earth is flat and it scares the fuck out of me.

Last edited by d21lewis - on 07 October 2020

Nothing will beat SNES to N64. That said the gen gap will be better then 360/PS3 to Xbox One/PS4.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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JWeinCom said:
DroidKnight said:

In one dimension, only the x-axis would exist.

I've never seen a game like that. Closest I've seen is a game where you could only move in one direction like Pong, but the ball, which is indirectly under your control half the time, moves in two dimensions. And the paddles and the balls are definitely two dimensions since they have measurable length and width. 

That's my take... like I said, if a geometry expert comes in, he can correct me.

The paddles are 1 dimensional and technically the ball is 0 dimensional.  (A point is zero dimensional.)  Two dimensional objects have an interior.  Their borders are one dimensional.  That is what makes something a two dimensional object.  It has to have an interior.  Also, the controller on Pong is one dimensional.  You can only move up or down. 

That is why I'm saying Pong is a 1D game.  It has nothing to do with what happens on screen.  We call Mario 64 a 3D game, but it is still on a 2D screen.    I'm saying Pong is 1D, because the graphics and controls are 1D.  The graphics of Mario 64 are 3D, and it uses an analogue stick.  That is why we call it 3D.  Pong uses 1D graphics and 1D controls.  

DroidKnight said:
DroidKnight said:

You are only making my point.

In one dimension you wouldn't move.  You would only exist in a single point.  No up, no down, no left, no right,.  Invisible, even stared at dead on.

One dimension is like the x-axis.  You could move left-right only or maybe up-down only.  Moving in all 4 directions is 2D.

Ka-pi96 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

You have a weird definition of 2D.  If I control a dot, that is 1D.  If I can only move left or right, then that is 1D.  You know what 1D is right?

I bet you don't consider SNES games with parallax scrolling to be 3D, even though the background looks 3D.  In order to be 3D, the whole game has to be 3D.  It's the same on the Atari 2600.  The games aren't really 2D.  They are 1D.

Also, I am curious if you agree with me that the biggest transition in gaming was from Generation 2 to 3.  Are disagreeing with this point, or are you just trying to distract from my main point?

Nope. The dot still has both a height and a width, therefore it's 2D.

1D isn't even possible.

Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width.  But your math teacher is still going to tell you it has no dimension, because they are talking about the concept of a shape and not the literal height and width.

RolStoppable said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Was this an argument you were making?

No, it's an argument I faced because we had people here who insisted that Other M feels very much like a Super Metroid sequel.

JWeinCom said:

These are some hot takes on what is 1 dimensional... Wish I could get a geometrician (if that's the word) in here.

If I claimed that 2+2=7, would you need a mathematician in here?

While Pong's controls are indeed 1D (movement only possible on the Y-axis), the gameplay is 2D because the ball that it is all about moves on the X-axis and Y-axis.

What The_Liquid_Laser calls a dot in Adventure is actually a square, and what he calls a stick (as in, a line) is actually a rectangle. Dots and lines are one-dimensional, but squares and rectangles are two-dimensional. He is making an argument that is based on intellectual dishonesty to begin with. The square that represents the player character in Adventure can move left, right, up and down, so that's movement on two dimensions. Primitive 2D games are still 2D games, including Pong and Arkanoid which use 1D controls.

At most, you can make the concession that Pong is a 1.5D game, similar to what we call 2.5D games where graphics are displayed in 3D, but the gameplay is limited to only two dimensions. However, Pong is part of a small minority in generation 2 because most games at the time had gameplay on two dimensions.

No, I am being perfectly honest.  The biggest mistake I've made is that I misjudged how much (or little) people understand geometry.

A square has an interior, and so does a rectangle.  That is why the objects in Pong are not 2D.  The controls are clearly not 2D either.  Gaming started out as purely 1D in the sense that the graphics and controls were purely in 1D.

Here is a quick geometry lesson.  Go ask any mathematician and you may be shocked that they tell you the exact same thing.

0 Dimensional - a point (a dot)
1 Dimensional - part of a line; a line segment (a stick)
2 Dimensional - part of a plane; often polygons (especially in video games).  Two dimensional shapes have a one dimensional border like a line segment or a curve.  This defines the two dimensional interior.
3 Dimensional - part of space, often polyhedrons (especially in video games).  Three dimensional shapes have two dimensional borders such polygons.  These borders define the three dimensional interior.  When you see calculations about number of polygons rendered they are talking about the exterior of a shape.  More polygons enables more smoothness and definition.

So if you look at Pong, Generation 1, it is limited by 1D graphics and controls.  It is just two line segments (1D) hitting a dot (0D), and you can only move up or down (1D).  This is very similar to how the NES is limited by 2D graphics and controls.  There isn't much 1D or 3D in NES games.  It as pure 2D as you can get. (Some late games had parallax scrolling.  That's about it.)  The SNES is also considered a 2D system, but it is starting to push the envelope into 3D: crude games like Star Fox, character models like Donkey Kong, and tons and tons of parallax scrolling.  It's trying to push into 3D, but it's still very limited to fundamentally 2D graphics and controls.  The Atari 2600 is very much like this with respect to 1D.  It really is trying to push into 2D, probably even more than the SNES is pushing into 3D, but so many games are limited to line segments and dots, 1 dimensional graphics.  There are also plenty of games where you can only move left or right, 1 dimensional controls.  It's trying hard to be 2D, but there are still lots of 1D limitations on the games.

Graphics are not really 2D until you have an interior though.  One big reason that Dragon Quest became popular was because of the art of Akira Toriyama, who also created Dragon Ball.  The NES was the first system where his art could have been relevant.  NES characters had an interior and that allowed him to make all of those Dragon Quest creatures that are still used today.  His art would have been wasted on a system like the Atari 2600 where the characters do not have an interior, and he would most have had to work with something like stick figures or other crude shapes.  Graphically, an interior is a very important distinction.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
JWeinCom said:

I've never seen a game like that. Closest I've seen is a game where you could only move in one direction like Pong, but the ball, which is indirectly under your control half the time, moves in two dimensions. And the paddles and the balls are definitely two dimensions since they have measurable length and width. 

That's my take... like I said, if a geometry expert comes in, he can correct me.

The paddles are 1 dimensional and technically the ball is 0 dimensional.  (A point is zero dimensional.)  Two dimensional objects have an interior.  Their borders are one dimensional.  That is what makes something a two dimensional object.  It has to have an interior.  Also, the controller on Pong is one dimensional.  You can only move up or down. 

That is why I'm saying Pong is a 1D game.  It has nothing to do with what happens on screen.  We call Mario 64 a 3D game, but it is still on a 2D screen.    I'm saying Pong is 1D, because the graphics and controls are 1D.  The graphics of Mario 64 are 3D, and it uses an analogue stick.  That is why we call it 3D.  Pong uses 1D graphics and 1D controls.  

DroidKnight said:

In one dimension you wouldn't move.  You would only exist in a single point.  No up, no down, no left, no right,.  Invisible, even stared at dead on.

One dimension is like the x-axis.  You could move left-right only or maybe up-down only.  Moving in all 4 directions is 2D.

Ka-pi96 said:

Nope. The dot still has both a height and a width, therefore it's 2D.

1D isn't even possible.

Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width.  But your math teacher is still going to tell you it has no dimension, because they are talking about the concept of a shape and not the literal height and width.

RolStoppable said:

No, it's an argument I faced because we had people here who insisted that Other M feels very much like a Super Metroid sequel.

If I claimed that 2+2=7, would you need a mathematician in here?

While Pong's controls are indeed 1D (movement only possible on the Y-axis), the gameplay is 2D because the ball that it is all about moves on the X-axis and Y-axis.

What The_Liquid_Laser calls a dot in Adventure is actually a square, and what he calls a stick (as in, a line) is actually a rectangle. Dots and lines are one-dimensional, but squares and rectangles are two-dimensional. He is making an argument that is based on intellectual dishonesty to begin with. The square that represents the player character in Adventure can move left, right, up and down, so that's movement on two dimensions. Primitive 2D games are still 2D games, including Pong and Arkanoid which use 1D controls.

At most, you can make the concession that Pong is a 1.5D game, similar to what we call 2.5D games where graphics are displayed in 3D, but the gameplay is limited to only two dimensions. However, Pong is part of a small minority in generation 2 because most games at the time had gameplay on two dimensions.

No, I am being perfectly honest.  The biggest mistake I've made is that I misjudged how much (or little) people understand geometry.

A square has an interior, and so does a rectangle.  That is why the objects in Pong are not 2D.  The controls are clearly not 2D either.  Gaming started out as purely 1D in the sense that the graphics and controls were purely in 1D.

Here is a quick geometry lesson.  Go ask any mathematician and you may be shocked that they tell you the exact same thing.

0 Dimensional - a point (a dot)
1 Dimensional - part of a line; a line segment (a stick)
2 Dimensional - part of a plane; often polygons (especially in video games).  Two dimensional shapes have a one dimensional border like a line segment or a curve.  This defines the two dimensional interior.
3 Dimensional - part of space, often polyhedrons (especially in video games).  Three dimensional shapes have two dimensional borders such polygons.  These borders define the three dimensional interior.  When you see calculations about number of polygons rendered they are talking about the exterior of a shape.  More polygons enables more smoothness and definition.

So if you look at Pong, Generation 1, it is limited by 1D graphics and controls.  It is just two line segments (1D) hitting a dot (0D), and you can only move up or down (1D).  This is very similar to how the NES is limited by 2D graphics and controls.  There isn't much 1D or 3D in NES games.  It as pure 2D as you can get. (Some late games had parallax scrolling.  That's about it.)  The SNES is also considered a 2D system, but it is starting to push the envelope into 3D: crude games like Star Fox, character models like Donkey Kong, and tons and tons of parallax scrolling.  It's trying to push into 3D, but it's still very limited to fundamentally 2D graphics and controls.  The Atari 2600 is very much like this with respect to 1D.  It really is trying to push into 2D, probably even more than the SNES is pushing into 3D, but so many games are limited to line segments and dots, 1 dimensional graphics.  There are also plenty of games where you can only move left or right, 1 dimensional controls.  It's trying hard to be 2D, but there are still lots of 1D limitations on the games.

Graphics are not really 2D until you have an interior though.  One big reason that Dragon Quest became popular was because of the art of Akira Toriyama, who also created Dragon Ball.  The NES was the first system where his art could have been relevant.  NES characters had an interior and that allowed him to make all of those Dragon Quest creatures that are still used today.  His art would have been wasted on a system like the Atari 2600 where the characters do not have an interior, and he would most have had to work with something like stick figures or other crude shapes.  Graphically, an interior is a very important distinction.

I haven’t read this much stupid shit condensed in a single post here in forever.



2D to 3D will always be the biggest leap as it added so many new aspects to gaming both from the perspective of a player and those of developer.



The_Liquid_Laser said:

0 Dimensional - a point (a dot)
1 Dimensional - part of a line; a line segment (a stick)
2 Dimensional - part of a plane; often polygons (especially in video games).  Two dimensional shapes have a one dimensional border like a line segment or a curve.  This defines the two dimensional interior.
3 Dimensional - part of space, often polyhedrons (especially in video games).  Three dimensional shapes have two dimensional borders such polygons.  These borders define the three dimensional interior.  When you see calculations about number of polygons rendered they are talking about the exterior of a shape.  More polygons enables more smoothness and definition.

I'm not into that dimension stuff, but a dot has to appear at least in 1 dimension in order to be recognised as a dot. 



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

The_Liquid_Laser said:
JWeinCom said:

I've never seen a game like that. Closest I've seen is a game where you could only move in one direction like Pong, but the ball, which is indirectly under your control half the time, moves in two dimensions. And the paddles and the balls are definitely two dimensions since they have measurable length and width. 

That's my take... like I said, if a geometry expert comes in, he can correct me.

The paddles are 1 dimensional and technically the ball is 0 dimensional.  (A point is zero dimensional.)  Two dimensional objects have an interior.  Their borders are one dimensional.  That is what makes something a two dimensional object.  It has to have an interior.  Also, the controller on Pong is one dimensional.  You can only move up or down. 

That is why I'm saying Pong is a 1D game.  It has nothing to do with what happens on screen.  We call Mario 64 a 3D game, but it is still on a 2D screen.    I'm saying Pong is 1D, because the graphics and controls are 1D.  The graphics of Mario 64 are 3D, and it uses an analogue stick.  That is why we call it 3D.  Pong uses 1D graphics and 1D controls.  

DroidKnight said:

In one dimension you wouldn't move.  You would only exist in a single point.  No up, no down, no left, no right,.  Invisible, even stared at dead on.

One dimension is like the x-axis.  You could move left-right only or maybe up-down only.  Moving in all 4 directions is 2D.

Ka-pi96 said:

Nope. The dot still has both a height and a width, therefore it's 2D.

1D isn't even possible.

Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width.  But your math teacher is still going to tell you it has no dimension, because they are talking about the concept of a shape and not the literal height and width.

RolStoppable said:

No, it's an argument I faced because we had people here who insisted that Other M feels very much like a Super Metroid sequel.

If I claimed that 2+2=7, would you need a mathematician in here?

While Pong's controls are indeed 1D (movement only possible on the Y-axis), the gameplay is 2D because the ball that it is all about moves on the X-axis and Y-axis.

What The_Liquid_Laser calls a dot in Adventure is actually a square, and what he calls a stick (as in, a line) is actually a rectangle. Dots and lines are one-dimensional, but squares and rectangles are two-dimensional. He is making an argument that is based on intellectual dishonesty to begin with. The square that represents the player character in Adventure can move left, right, up and down, so that's movement on two dimensions. Primitive 2D games are still 2D games, including Pong and Arkanoid which use 1D controls.

At most, you can make the concession that Pong is a 1.5D game, similar to what we call 2.5D games where graphics are displayed in 3D, but the gameplay is limited to only two dimensions. However, Pong is part of a small minority in generation 2 because most games at the time had gameplay on two dimensions.

No, I am being perfectly honest.  The biggest mistake I've made is that I misjudged how much (or little) people understand geometry.

A square has an interior, and so does a rectangle.  That is why the objects in Pong are not 2D.  The controls are clearly not 2D either.  Gaming started out as purely 1D in the sense that the graphics and controls were purely in 1D.

Here is a quick geometry lesson.  Go ask any mathematician and you may be shocked that they tell you the exact same thing.

0 Dimensional - a point (a dot)
1 Dimensional - part of a line; a line segment (a stick)
2 Dimensional - part of a plane; often polygons (especially in video games).  Two dimensional shapes have a one dimensional border like a line segment or a curve.  This defines the two dimensional interior.
3 Dimensional - part of space, often polyhedrons (especially in video games).  Three dimensional shapes have two dimensional borders such polygons.  These borders define the three dimensional interior.  When you see calculations about number of polygons rendered they are talking about the exterior of a shape.  More polygons enables more smoothness and definition.

So if you look at Pong, Generation 1, it is limited by 1D graphics and controls.  It is just two line segments (1D) hitting a dot (0D), and you can only move up or down (1D).  This is very similar to how the NES is limited by 2D graphics and controls.  There isn't much 1D or 3D in NES games.  It as pure 2D as you can get. (Some late games had parallax scrolling.  That's about it.)  The SNES is also considered a 2D system, but it is starting to push the envelope into 3D: crude games like Star Fox, character models like Donkey Kong, and tons and tons of parallax scrolling.  It's trying to push into 3D, but it's still very limited to fundamentally 2D graphics and controls.  The Atari 2600 is very much like this with respect to 1D.  It really is trying to push into 2D, probably even more than the SNES is pushing into 3D, but so many games are limited to line segments and dots, 1 dimensional graphics.  There are also plenty of games where you can only move left or right, 1 dimensional controls.  It's trying hard to be 2D, but there are still lots of 1D limitations on the games.

Graphics are not really 2D until you have an interior though.  One big reason that Dragon Quest became popular was because of the art of Akira Toriyama, who also created Dragon Ball.  The NES was the first system where his art could have been relevant.  NES characters had an interior and that allowed him to make all of those Dragon Quest creatures that are still used today.  His art would have been wasted on a system like the Atari 2600 where the characters do not have an interior, and he would most have had to work with something like stick figures or other crude shapes.  Graphically, an interior is a very important distinction.

"Actually, I misspoke.  A dot has no dimension.  It is 0D.  In any math class, your teacher has to make the dot big enough for you to see, so it technically has a height and width."

Uhhhhhhhh...

A dot has dimensions. It doesn't just "technically" have length and width, it actually does have length and width. If something has length and width it is two dimensional.

A point does not have any size or dimensions, but a point is not the same as a dot. A dot is a tangible symbol that represents a point. 

The ball in pong is not a point. It's not even supposed to represent a point. A point is a location in space, not something that bounces around on paddles. 

Like the dot your teacher draws, the ball in pong has length and width. It is two dimensional. If it was zero dimensional, we could not see it. If you could somehow "hit" an object with 0 dimensions then that's some kind of witchcraft.

Likewise, the paddles are not line segments. A line segment is a series of points. Theoretically, a line segment would have no width, but we cannot actually draw something with zero width. The thing that we do draw (which confusingly is also called a line segment) has width. 

The paddles in pong again aren't even an attempt to represent something with zero width. Those babies are thicc. They clearly do not have zero width.

They are made of four line segments. There is an interior space between the line segments. The fact that the interior is the same color as the sides does not mean there is no interior. They are rectangles. They have two sets of parallel sides that are equal in length, and four right angles.

The ball and the paddles all have length and width. That is evident based on the fact that we can see them. I can measure the area of all three. They all take up a definite amount of space on the plane. They are all two dimensionals.

I would indeed absolutely be shocked if a mathematician told me differently.

This post is purely a courtesy for your benefit. I'm not actually going to start arguing over whether something that we can clearly see takes up two dimensional space on a plane is actually zero dimensional.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 07 October 2020