By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony Discussion - Pachter has a point: Sony blew it with the PS5 digital edition

Pretty sure that’s why we hearing reports of launch stock overwhelmingly favouring the disk drive ps5



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Around the Network
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I know you replied to me, but you didn't actually address anything I actually said.  I'll repeat the main points so that it's clear.

An all digital future benefits Microsoft and not Sony.  This is because console hardware prices will shoot up to near PC levels when retailers are not able to sell physical games.  Consoles will become like PCs for good and for bad.  They will be all digital, like PCs, and the hardware will be priced like a PC.  The PC market will grow and the console market will implodeAll of this helps Microsoft.

You would not see a change in RRP. Which retailers are going to drop them anyway? A new console brings people into the store. The games can also still be sold as digital redeemable vouchers, gaming peripherals and cards. Everything (including retail) is shifting to digital. An all digital future clearly benefits Sony. It currently does. They're booming in it.

The shift has been taking place since 2015. Digital is now 51% of their revenue. 

First quarter 2020 saw 71% of their first party games sold as digital.

Now they're releasing an all digital console.

But they fear an all digital future?



 

sales2099 said:
Pretty sure that’s why we hearing reports of launch stock overwhelmingly favouring the disk drive ps5

I think they did focus groups and research and found that most people still would want to pay extra for the disc PS5. And that's what I'm seeing online, most people talking about how great the aggressive $399 entry point is are probably planning on getting the disc one anyway, as if you do the math you save money in the long run.



There's only 2 races: White and 'Political Agenda'
2 Genders: Male and 'Political Agenda'
2 Hairstyles for female characters: Long and 'Political Agenda'
2 Sexualities: Straight and 'Political Agenda'

hinch said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I know you replied to me, but you didn't actually address anything I actually said.  I'll repeat the main points so that it's clear.

An all digital future benefits Microsoft and not Sony.  This is because console hardware prices will shoot up to near PC levels when retailers are not able to sell physical games.  Consoles will become like PCs for good and for bad.  They will be all digital, like PCs, and the hardware will be priced like a PC.  The PC market will grow and the console market will implode.  All of this helps Microsoft.

Consoles will never sell over $700. Reason being that most consumers won't pay that amount for console. Nobody wants a repeat for the $599 debacle of the PS3. Anything over $500 is pushing it. The rest is a bit well, nonsense, sorry no other way of putting it.

You do make a small point.  If consoles get too high in price, then customers will not buy it.  However if console prices stay low then retailers will not sell it, not in an all digital marketplace.  Retailers make no profit from console hardware.  Sony will be caught in a catch-22.  Regardless of what happens the console market will implode.  PC wins, and therefore Microsoft wins.  That is the natural result of an all digital future. 

Dallinor said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I know you replied to me, but you didn't actually address anything I actually said.  I'll repeat the main points so that it's clear.

An all digital future benefits Microsoft and not Sony.  This is because console hardware prices will shoot up to near PC levels when retailers are not able to sell physical games.  Consoles will become like PCs for good and for bad.  They will be all digital, like PCs, and the hardware will be priced like a PC.  The PC market will grow and the console market will implodeAll of this helps Microsoft.

You would not see a change in RRP. Which retailers are going to drop them anyway? A new console brings people into the store. The games can also still be sold as digital redeemable vouchers, gaming peripherals and cards. Everything (including retail) is shifting to digital. An all digital future clearly benefits Sony. It currently does. They're booming in it.

The shift has been taking place since 2015. Digital is now 51% of their revenue. 

First quarter 2020 saw 71% of their first party games sold as digital.

Now they're releasing an all digital console.

But they fear an all digital future?

All retailers are going to drop console hardware.  Either that or the price will have to rise.  Currently there is no profit in console hardware for retailers.  Retailers benefit from selling games.  Cards are a stopgap and not a permanent solution.  The money for retailers is in actual physical games.  If physical games go, then so do consoles.  Either that or the hardware has to reach PC prices so that retailers can make a profit.

Really, every champion of the "all digital future" has not really thought through the consequences.  It may sound great from a convenience perspective, but retailers do not benefit from an "all digital future".  They aren't going to just mindlessly do what Sony wants either.  Walmart and Amazon could eat Sony for breakfast.  They need to make a profit in order to sell hardware.  With physical games it's not an issue because retailers make money on the games.  But in the "all digital future" retailers aren't making money from the games anymore.  The whole reason Sony is seeing an increase in revenue from digital sales is that they are taking sales away from the retailers.  Sony is competing with their own partners.  Retailers are not going to accept this.  At a certain point, hardware will either need a price increase or the retailers just won't sell it. 

Of course, Microsoft will be just fine.  Even without consoles Microsoft can still deliver Gamepass through other platforms.  Or maybe people use Steam more.  That benefits Microsoft too, because people will buy more PCs.  Either way Microsoft wins.  Microsoft has been pushing hard for an all digital future for a long time now, and it should be clear why.  In an all digital future, Microsoft wins.



ArchangelMadzz said:
sales2099 said:
Pretty sure that’s why we hearing reports of launch stock overwhelmingly favouring the disk drive ps5

I think they did focus groups and research and found that most people still would want to pay extra for the disc PS5. And that's what I'm seeing online, most people talking about how great the aggressive $399 entry point is are probably planning on getting the disc one anyway, as if you do the math you save money in the long run.

I’m seeing the opposite. Twitter full of people who made their move to digital long ago but could only find the disc drive PS5 to preorder. Meh guess we’ll see. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Around the Network

VAMatt said:

If they lose $50 per system, and they gain $6 per digital game over physical game sold, and the attach rate is 10 games per console, and 50% of sales are digital regardless of console type, then Sony cannot make their money back. They would only get $30 back over the life of the console. There are some guesstimates in my math, but it should be in the general ballpark.


I love this laser focus on the difference of digital vs physical profits, and difference of 50% vs 100% digital, it's all so relative.
What's the relative difference of 2nd hand market giving Sony NOTHING, compared to mandatory digital giving Sony best possible margins?
2nd hand used market can re-sell single disc to MULTIPLE buyers, so it's not just 2:1 but potentially 3:1 or more that is being lost.
The existence of 2nd hard market doesn't even incentivize Sony to maximally drop prices, since 2nd hand can always beat them.
The most price senstitive consumers will always utilize that, so Sony's long tail sales are always dependent on prestige of not being used.
When 2nd hand is destroyed, they will at least be more incentivized to drop prices enough to maximize capital returns with increased sales.

And crying for loss of game retailers is fine, but Sony does not absolutely depend on them to move consoles.
General retailers sell TVs for similar amounts of money and shelf space, without follow on software business to prop them up.
They can just as easily sell game consoles under same business model, of course also having accessories and so on, unlike TVs.

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 02 October 2020

The_Liquid_Laser said:

All retailers are going to drop console hardware.  Either that or the price will have to rise.  Currently there is no profit in console hardware for retailers.  Retailers benefit from selling games.  Cards are a stopgap and not a permanent solution.  The money for retailers is in actual physical games.  If physical games go, then so do consoles.  Either that or the hardware has to reach PC prices so that retailers can make a profit.

Really, every champion of the "all digital future" has not really thought through the consequences.  It may sound great from a convenience perspective, but retailers do not benefit from an "all digital future".  They aren't going to just mindlessly do what Sony wants either.  Walmart and Amazon could eat Sony for breakfast.  They need to make a profit in order to sell hardware.  With physical games it's not an issue because retailers make money on the games.  But in the "all digital future" retailers aren't making money from the games anymore.  The whole reason Sony is seeing an increase in revenue from digital sales is that they are taking sales away from the retailers.  Sony is competing with their own partners.  Retailers are not going to accept this.  At a certain point, hardware will either need a price increase or the retailers just won't sell it. 

Of course, Microsoft will be just fine.  Even without consoles Microsoft can still deliver Gamepass through other platforms.  Or maybe people use Steam more.  That benefits Microsoft too, because people will buy more PCs.  Either way Microsoft wins.  Microsoft has been pushing hard for an all digital future for a long time now, and it should be clear why.  In an all digital future, Microsoft wins.

Yeah neither of those things will happen. Of course there is profit it's just razor thin margins- typically 3-5%. It's all about getting people into their store, or in the case of Amazon clicking on their site. Once they have you in, you might buy something with a much higher margin. If they don't have you in, that's a lost customer. The buzz surrounding a new product launch can generate an enormous amount of foot traffic or views. If the retailer is specialized (gaming), they would actually stand to hurt their business even more, by dropping the product that draws traffic in favour of only stocking products with higher margins and lose those potential customers to places that will stock it. If they don't innovate they die.

They will accept it and if necessary change their business. There's a huge number of electronics products that are sold on razor thin margins- including phones and TV's. I think you're largely basing your ideas on the core gaming business'- like Gamestop and Game etc. They will either adapt or die out. Specialized retailers are the most vulnerable to market changes - see Blockbuster or Tower Records.

I presume you think Sony won't adopt a services approach? They won't see the writing on the wall and miss the train?



 

PS5de users are also locked out of the used games market, where sony makes $0 on each sale.



4 ≈ One

Ka-pi96 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

You do make a small point.  If consoles get too high in price, then customers will not buy it.  However if console prices stay low then retailers will not sell it, not in an all digital marketplace.  Retailers make no profit from console hardware.  Sony will be caught in a catch-22.  Regardless of what happens the console market will implode.  PC wins, and therefore Microsoft wins.  That is the natural result of an all digital future. 

I doubt that's the case. But even if it were, that could be changed. Retailers could sell it in order to make a profit from the hardware.

And in an all digital future only game specific retailers would be screwed. Personally I haven't went to a game specific retailer for a LONG time. Most of my gaming purchases are done via Amazon, general electronics stores or supermarkets. All places that would still operate regardless of whether physical games existed or not.

(referring to bold)  This is what I've been saying exactly.  They can sell hardware to make a profit, but if they do that then hardware will need to be priced near a PC of similar specs.  Retailers make a profit on PCs and that is why they are currently a lot more pricey than consoles.



BraLoD said:
ClassicGamingWizzz said:
Sony gives people options? Sont blew it
Sony makes a good price on a console? Sony blew it
Sony releases a 600 dolar console? Arrogant sony blew it

Sony blew it so hard that the no disc version sold out just like the other version, people with that version will pay 70 or 80 euros dolats in new games, no used games lost sales for them too, they fucking blew like usual, sony always blew it

Sony just can do no right.

I wonder how they keep afloat, must be luck.

Actually I see people saying it's always luck because of external factors that they do well, must really be it, happens everytime too!

I was gonna post it, but you are right, Sony never makes it right. At most they can copy others.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."